Talk:Abu'l-Fath Khan Javanshir

Abu'l-Fath Khan Javanshir has been listed as one of the Warfare good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Review: July 8, 2024. (Reviewed version).

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GA Review

Passed. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 22:03, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This review is transcluded from Talk:Abu'l-Fath Khan Javanshir/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Nominator: HistoryofIran (talk · contribs) 17:12, 20 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Reviewer: Thebiguglyalien (talk · contribs) 20:48, 21 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for working on this! Give me a few days and I'll look it over. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 20:48, 21 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

HistoryofIran, I've read the article and posted a review below. The main issue here is readability, as the wording and organization makes it difficult to understand at times. If it were a longer article I'd consider closing the review so you could edit the article at your leisure, but given how short it is I figured I'd give you the option of doing it now. I've also made a few copyedits that you can look over if you'd like. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 00:01, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Lead:

The lead shouldn't just be a copy and paste of specific details in article. It should summarize them, giving a broad overview of everything in the article in one or two paragraphs, roughly in the same proportion as the info appears in the article.

I rewrote some of it, but I'm not sure what else to change here? I feel like the lede currently gives a good overview of the article. --HistoryofIran (talk) 03:00, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If 1839 is only an estimation, it should use Template:Circa.

Done. --HistoryofIran (talk) 01:11, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

was an Iranian commander – If he was a khan/governor, wouldn't that be more significant than being a commander?

His father was khan/governor. --HistoryofIran (talk) 01:11, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Avoid the phrase "survived by".

Changed. --HistoryofIran (talk) 01:11, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Biography:

I find it hard to follow along with what's happening because the article jumps back and forth between subjects too quickly. If possible, try to explain the sequence of events more simply. This paragraph is a good example:

Fath-Ali Shah was convinced of Ibrahim Khalil Khan's lack of reliability by his unwillingness to help Javad Khan against the Russian siege of Ganja in 1804. Thus, Abu'l-Fath Khan was appointed as the new khan. Despite this, Ibrahim Khalil Khan continued to rule as the khan of Karabakh. Abu'l-Fath Khan was also appointed the ruler of lands outside Karabakh, Kapan and Meghri, where he successfully established control.

It's four sentences in a row where it switches who we're talking about every time a new sentence starts, and Javad Khan fighting a Russian siege of Ganja in 1804 is a very wordy detail stuck in the middle of it. This sort of thing exists throughout the article and makes it confusing.

Unfortunately the lack of details in the sources greatly contribute to this. I tried to simplify it a bit without sacrificing any detail, thoughts? --HistoryofIran (talk) 03:00, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm personally not bothered by this, but some editors discourage the use of "biography" as a heading. You could rename it or split it into two separate sections. But you can also leave it as is.
It seems that Abu'l-Fath Khan's first political experience – "seems" makes it sound like we're giving our own analysis instead of reporting on the analysis of others.

Reworded. --HistoryofIran (talk) 03:22, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

to the uprising led by his brother Hossein Qoli Khan – Whose brother? This could refer to Agha Mohammad Khan, Abu'l-Fath Khan, or Fath-Ali Shah. Alternatively, I'm not sure if these details about Agha Mohammad Khan's death and Fath-Ali Shah's activities are needed at all. The important part is that Abu'l-Fath Khan participated in the funeral procession.

Removed that bit. --HistoryofIran (talk) 01:20, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Following this, he gave Abu'l-Fath Khan an official reception in his residence – Again, the "he" and the "his" are both vague.

Fixed. --HistoryofIran (talk) 01:11, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ibrahim Khalil Khan quickly established friendly relations with Fath-Ali Shah Qajar, who married his daughter Agha Baji Javanshir and confirmed him as the khan of Karabakh – Is this relevant to Abu'l-Fath Khan? We should only provide enough context to understand where Abu'l-Fath Khan was.

It shows that the Karabakh khan was at the time under Iranian suzerainty before the war and that Abu'l-Fath Khan's sister also had ties to Qajar Iran and was in the court with him. --HistoryofIran (talk) 03:00, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

who was around the same time sent as a hostage the shah – How did he become a hostage? And I thought he was loyal to the shah.

Clarified. --HistoryofIran (talk) 02:25, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In May 1805, he submitted to the Russians – Who? Abu'l-Fath Khan? As a general rule, use the person's name the first time they're mentioned in a new paragraph.

It was his father, fixed. --HistoryofIran (talk) 01:11, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ibrahim Khalil Khan was shortly afterwards killed by a group Russian soldiers under the instigation of his grandson Ja'far Qoli Agha and the commander of the Russian garrison – This whole sentence is a lot. Consider rewording it more simply or splitting it into two sentences so it can be read more easily.

Split into two sentences. --HistoryofIran (talk) 03:22, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

the Jabraillu to the borders of Kapan – I'm not sure what's meant by "to the borders of".

Replaced "borders" with "periphery", thoughts? --HistoryofIran (talk) 18:44, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

against his grandfather's "betrayal" – Avoid scare quotes. I see that it's also like that in the source, but it should be rewritten when the information is added to Wikipedia anyway.

Removed the "betrayal" bit. --HistoryofIran (talk) 03:22, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

is the only one who brings up this subject – Does the source specifically say he's the only one? It's then contradicted by the next sentence, which mentions other people who brought it up.

Reworded it a bit to make more sense; "The precise date of Abu'l-Fath Khan's death is not mentioned in any of the contemporary or nearly contemporaneous sources. The Iranian historian Seyyed Ahmad Divan Beygi Shirazi is the only one who somewhat brings up this subject, mentioning that it happened soon after 1834." --HistoryofIran (talk) 03:22, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Cultural patronage:

Abu'l-Fath Khan was renowned for his sophisticated taste sounds like puffery.

Removed. --HistoryofIran (talk) 01:11, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Offspring:

Are these all of his children, or only a select few? The article should specify.

Specified. --HistoryofIran (talk) 03:22, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

a distinguished statesman sounds like puffery.

Removed. --HistoryofIran (talk) 01:11, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Spot checks:

Bournoutian (2021) p. 83 – Good.
Bournoutian (2021) p. 107 – Being a concubine's son, he had little chance of being his father's legitimate heir. He might have attempted to use his mother's ethnicity as an opportunity to solicit assistance from Karabakh's substantial Armenian community. This is close paraphrasing, where it looks like it was copied directly from the source and then some words were swapped out.

Ops, reworded. --HistoryofIran (talk) 01:20, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Bournoutian (2021) pp. 135–136 – Good.
Busse (1983) – The linked version does not say "1810". Otherwise good.

Fixed. --HistoryofIran (talk) 01:45, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Daniel (2001) – Good.

Hi Thebiguglyalien. Thanks for the review. I can see that I should have been more thorough when writing this article, my bad. I'll get to it. --HistoryofIran (talk) 01:11, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

HistoryofIran, checking in since it's been about a week since any changes have been made. Is everything ready for me to look it over again? Thebiguglyalien (talk) 06:02, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Thebiguglyalien: Yes please. I've addressed most of the issues, but there are a few things I'm uncertain about. HistoryofIran (talk) 12:36, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Everything looks good now. I made a few more copyedits to help with word order (but feel free to challenge these if you disagree). I'm glad to designate it as a good article now. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 22:02, 8 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.