Talk:Cleopatra

clarifying "he" in the third paragraph

> He carried out the execution of Arsinoe at her request

In the third paragraph there is a lot of Cleopatra and Antony except this sentence. Something about how it follows the previous one makes it a bit confusing in the flow, perhaps because there are 3 he's in the previous sentence, although on re-reading (and confirming at the Arsinoe article) Antony is the correct he here. Improving it might involve editing the surrounding sentences too. JustGaro (talk) 15:47, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

@JustGaro@ 2601:589:5180:9AE0:B069:5140:349B:E195 (talk) 23:47, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

@JustGaro 2601:407:8500:B350:19F6:A5F0:AA4D:85A5 (talk) 02:33, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

redundant formulation

the "Egyptian" look similar to the queens Cleopatra and Nefertiti -- this phrase is redundant because, for popular purposes, Cleopatra and Nefertiti "look Egyptian". -- Melchior2006 (talk) 08:29, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

Cleopatra was not of Egyptian descent thou?. Neither was Trajan, and he can be seen in Egyptian murals decked out in Pharaonic attire. 2A00:23C8:A72F:4A01:190A:97D7:47CF:38ED (talk) 11:49, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

Yes! Adding to that, Cleopatra and Nefertiti wore very different attire and royal headgear per their surviving portraits (with some obvious similarities and symbolism like the uraeus that was a mainstay in Egyptian culture). And of course Nefertiti (who lived during the Bronze Age) never wore a Hellenistic Greek style diadem that Cleopatra was often seen wearing. I personally don't find the quoted statement in the article to be redundant. Sometimes it is preferable if not necessary to use clear examples to avoid ambiguity, especially if it is a point being emphasized in a cited scholarly source by an academic expert on the subject. Pericles of Athens^Talk 16:49, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

Illiterate

This article is almost unreadable with too much detail and subsidiary stories crammed into what passes for a narrative. It’s an important subject. Could someone with a grasp of English please rewrite this from scratch? 213.18.182.0 (talk) 17:33, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Oh sure, I'll get right on rewriting this article from scratch.

While you're making reasonable requests, could I make one that you point to particular problem passages that illustrate your point? Remsense ‥ 论 18:21, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Change in infobox image

Current image

Proposed replacement

I don't feel too strongly about this, but I do feel another image for the infobox probably would be better. Basically the same thing but a more front-facing view. Zinderboff(talk) 21:04, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 November 2024

Word usage. In the "Downfall and death" section, "Meanwhile, Horace collaborates the..." should be changed to "Meanwhile, Horace corroborates the..." etc. Tmdecelles (talk) 00:39, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

 Done Good catch. LizardJr8 (talk) 05:16, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Sourcing style

Hello, this is part of edition I had made at the end of section 'Relationship with Julius Caesar': It is suggested, based on Cicero's letter, that Cleopatra might have been pregnant at that time with her and Caesar's second child; if so, this potential pregnancy ended in loss of a baby[source]. A few months later, Cleopatra allegedly [source] had Ptolemy XIV killed by poisoning, elevating her son Caesarion as her co-ruler.

I highlighted on bold things written by me.

Piccco complained on this and wrote that 'Sourcing style was also inconsistent with the rest of the article'. I provided sources according to template from wikipedia. For first sentence: Tyldesley, Joyce (2009). Cleopatra: Last Queen of Egypt. Profile Books. p. 144. ISBN 978-1861979018. For word 'allegedly': Tyldesley, Joyce (2009). Cleopatra: Last Queen of Egypt. Profile Books. pp. 145-146. ISBN 978-1861979018."Josephus, consistently anti-Cleopatra and prone to seeping statements, offers no proof in support of his allegation. (...) it is important to remember that estimated average life expectancy for men who survived infancy in Ptolemaic Egypt was only thrirty-three. To die at just fifteen years of age was sad, but it was by no means unusual".

I do not really know how exactly have the sourcing style that would be preffered. But if someone is kind enough, please correct those notes how you wish. I only wanted provid informations - I do not know yet all wikipedia's styles and editing of templates is something I have to yet work out. Sobek2000 (talk) 21:35, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

I have responded at my talkpage regarding the reverts of the recent changes. As I said, the main reason for the revert is the fact that this is a featured article and too many fast new additions, especially by newly created accounts, need to be checked, in order to maintain the article's high quality. Besides the quality of the sources themselves, the additions also need to be checked not only for their truthfulness, but also for simpler things that do matter in a high-quality article, such as where they are added, in which paragraph, context? (they can't be a standalone paragraph on their own), are they repeated anywhere else in the article? is the information WP:DUE? (for example, the original content appeared well-sourced; how should the new additions be worded appropriately?) etc. The source itself seems WP:RS, the rest may need to be examined. It also needs to follow the standard sfn/p template for sourcing, as it is used all over the article for consistency. Finally, you made several smaller changes, some of which are not necessarily bad, but they are not improvements either. For example, the Ptolemies were represented as Pharaohs to the Egyptians, but as Basileus to the Greeks (see Ptolemy I Soter), so the introduction needs to keep the English title Queen which translates both. Closing, I just felt it was right to restore the version that has long-standing consensus, at least until more older editors examine the additions, and mostly because this is a high quality article. Piccco (talk) 21:52, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

'so the introduction needs to keep the English title Queen which translates both' - What a nonsens. Then please why Ptolemy I still is reffered as pharaoh in first sentence? Sobek2000 (talk) 22:16, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

If this was 'high quality artcile' then it wouldn't be saying that Cleopatra 'usurped' Arsinoe. It statement wa sthere for months, if not years. If this would be 'high quality article' this nonses information would be deleted immiediately. Wikipedia enourage to be 'bold', so I am bold there. I will be edit any incorrect satemnt I see. As for title, every Ptolemaic Pharaoh was Basileus, yet I am seeing them described as simply 'pharaoh' in their respective articles. I think you should correct every article about ptolemaic pharaohs, if you care so much.

' I just felt it was right to restore the version that has long-standing consensus, at least until more older editors examine the additions' - I don't really understand what more examination you want. All I said were basic facts, and if something was uncertain, I said - if source is needed - I will be happy to provide it. Sobek2000 (talk) 22:33, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

Approval of changes

Hello, aside from sourcing style, I made few changes in sentences that were NOT sourced before, so I also did not provided them. I want to explain them all in one place:

1) I believe first sentence should reffer that Cleopatra was Pharaoh in her own right. Word 'queen' is correct but ambiguous - some people I interacted both in real life and online still are confused wheter she was Pharaoh (aka: ruler of ancient Egypt in their own right) or 'only' queen (consort/regent), hence I wanted to make it clear from the first sentence of such wide source as Wikipedia, that yes, she was pharaoh in her own right.

As for that she was 'last active ruler' of Egypt, statement itself is correct and I kept this, but I extended this to clarify what it exactly means, since 'active' sounds very enigmatic. (One can make argument that if Caesarion was making offering to gods, then he was 'active' ruler, but I am sure it's no this 'activity; authors of this sentence meant.) And for that reason I explained: 'She reigned as dominant co-monarch in ruling unions with her two brothers and her son, Caesarion, and thus was effectively the last active ruler of her dynasty.' I incorporated original statement into my own. If this sentence has some grammar errors or is too complex, I can modify it. Just notify me.

2) I deleted from infobox information that Arsinoe was her successor and 'Cleopatra later usurped her power' because that is factually incorrect - Arsinoe claimed queenship against Cleopatra, but Arsinoe was never queen recognized by country nor included in dating protocols, nor she was crown as queen. Arsinoe was the one who tried to usurp Cleopatra, and Cleopatra merely regained her power back. I did not provided my source before, but neither was source provided for this claim about alleged usurpation. However, if someone needs, here is my source: Tara Sewell-Lasater, Becoming Kleopatra: Ptolemaic Royal Marriage, Incest and the Path to the Female Rule, University of Houston, 2020, p. 427. ("After Julius Caesar arrived in Egypt, Arsinoë was appointed as joint ruler of Cyprus with her brother, Ptolemy XIV (Dio Cass. 42.35), in an attempt to end the civil strife. Either she, her philoi, the army, or all involved were unhappy with this arrangement because she was proclaimed queen in place of Kleopatra VII and Ptolemy XIII in September of 48 BCE (Dio Cass. 42.39; Ps.-Caes. BAlex. 4). She was not crowned as queen, however, and it is likely she was acclaimed so by the army, rather than being officially recognized by the Alexandrian administration.") If Arsinoe was not legitimate queen, Cleopatra could not usurp her, as Arsinoe was usurper/rebel/claimant to crown herself and Cleopatra was legitimate queen.

3) I deleted information she was co-ruler with her father, because... article never says she did. At the end of section "Rule and exile of Ptolemy XII" there is sentence she was 'made regent for her father', not 'co-regent' (co-ruler/co-monarch). As for hipotetical co-regency, it depends on researcher. From what I see, consensus is that co-rule with her father were possible, but not confirmed, hence I do not think Ptolemy XII should be listed among her co-rulers, or that he should be listed as co-ruler with addnotation "(possibly)".

If there is issue with any of my statements, then please, explain why and I will try to modify it. I only care about providing people who want to know more about Cleopatra with clarity. Sobek2000 (talk) 22:14, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

About point 1 - I think it would best if there was information that Cleopatra "was queen regnant[link to Basileus] and pharaoh". In this way it would describe both her Greek and Egyptian regnal roles. As I explained don't think current stare ('Queen' alone) is sufficient, but I do understand that acknowledging that she was Basilissa is as much important as her status of Pharaoh. Sobek2000 (talk) 00:09, 17 December 2024 (UTC)