Talk:Ulf Merbold

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Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Theleekycauldron (talk) 11:57, 17 April 2022 (UTC)

(

• Comment or view
• Article history

)

Ulf Merbold as crew member of STS-42

• ... that Ulf Merbold (pictured), the first West German in space, grew up in East Germany? Source: Evans 2013: "Both Merbold (born on 20 June 1941) and Jähn had spent their formative years in the German Democratic Republic, the communist-led East Germany"
  • ALT1: ... that Ulf Merbold (pictured), the first West German in space, and Sigmund Jähn, the first East German in space, come from the same region in East Germany? Source: https://www.esa.int/Newsroom/Press_Releases/25_Years_of_Human_Spaceflight_in_Europe
  • ALT2: ... that Ulf Merbold (pictured) left East Germany by bicycle because he wanted to study physics? Source: see article
  • ALT3: ... that Ulf Merbold (pictured), whose father died in the Soviet NKVD special camp Nr. 2, later flew to space with the Russian Soyuz TM-20? Source: see article
  • Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Hittite plague
  • Comment: My childhood hero. Better hook ideas always welcome.

5x expanded by Kusma (talk). Self-nominated at 21:45, 1 April 2022 (UTC).

• A 5x expansion has been accomplished and no close paraphrasing was done. A QPQ has been performed. I like ALT0 and ALT2 the best, but in ALT2's case I think it would be better to mention the "first West German in space" part and perhaps also mentioning that he grew up in East Germany too. Once ALT2 has been revised this will be good to go. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 12:05, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

Are you saying @Narutolovehinata5: that its fine to go, but unless someone changes it to how you would like it then you won't approve it? Victuallers (talk) 12:27, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

• • Thank you for the review! How about this one:
    • ALT2a: ... that Ulf Merbold (pictured) left his home country of East Germany by bicycle because he wanted to study physics and later became the first West German citizen in space?
    • ALT2b: ... that the first West German in space, Ulf Merbold (pictured), grew up in East Germany but left because he wanted to study physics?
  • I find it difficult not to make this long and convoluted, so I think we need to drop something, either the bicycle, or the growing up. The bicycle part probably only makes sense if you know that there was a nasty border between West and East Germany by the late 1950s, but until the Berlin Wall was built, there was no border between West and East Berlin. —Kusma (talk) 12:30, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

(edit conflict) @Victuallers: I'm just waiting for ALT2 to be revised before approving the nomination. The actual article is good to go, it's just that ALT2 needs revision. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 12:30, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

Well that seems to me to be an abuse of the process. If you want to rewrite Alt2 then we can consider that too. Surely you are saying to the nominator that they have to do as you want. I'm happy to approve this without demanding style changes (that I might think would be an approvement.) Victuallers (talk) 15:11, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

@Victuallers and Narutolovehinata5: I think it is fine to discuss whether a hook can be improved. The way the DYK process works, it is usually best to do the discussion and potential improvements before the formal approval. (If we wanted to be more bureaucratic, we could separately approve the article and each of the hooks, but DYK is already quite bureaucratic for my taste). Are ALT2a/ALT2b better? Or is there a better hook to be written from any of the incidents, like Mir losing power or computer failures on Columbia? —Kusma (talk) 18:11, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

It may be fine in this case and you both may be happy with the changes, however if a hook and article pass the process then they pass the process. The approval should not be withheld. If their really is an improvement possible then why do we need to hold out the tick until it is made? Its an improvement. We could see DYK approvers demanding that they would like "x" included or "you just" avoid mentioning "y" or "please rewrite the hook in the way that I prefer" (and I think I have). If it deserves a tick then it should be ticked and any optional improvements can be mentioned but not demanded.</rant> Victuallers (talk) 18:20, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

The alternative is reviewers accepting one hook and rejecting the others (and then it is more work to get variations of the other hooks approved). There are some general wikiphilosophical problems with the whole nominate/review process (instead of collaboratively improving the hook) but if we want to have strict quality control for the Main Page, we need gatekeepers. But all of that is probably a discussion more suited to WT:DYK. —Kusma (talk) 18:49, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

• @Narutolovehinata5: what do you think about ALT2a/2b? Happy to hear your thoughts about improving the hooks. —Kusma (talk) 20:30, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

I think ALT2b is better. ALT2a's wording is a bit awkward, as you suggested. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 01:16, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

OK, I've struck ALT2a; do you think you can approve this now? —Kusma (talk) 07:31, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

Approving ALT2b only. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 10:57, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

@Narutolovehinata5: I can't have ALT0? theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/they) 01:51, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

Also, what's the hangup here? If I say that I think a hook I review should have a stylistic change, and the nominator protests, I'm usually happy to give deference. But there's no incentive to discuss or consider if I tick it right away. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/they) 01:52, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

For what it's worth I think ALT2b is better because it gives some context as to why he left East Germany. Actually, originally I wanted the bicycle thing to be mentioned but adding it would have made the final hook clunky, so ALT2b was intended to be some kind of compromise. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 02:10, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

It may actually be hookier without the context (i.e. ALT0). Could we leave the choice of hook to the promoter? —Kusma (talk) 12:11, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

I'm not happy with the sourcing for that, but according to Wikipedia, Ulf Merbold threw the first boomerang in space :) —Kusma (talk) 12:14, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

@Narutolovehinata5: I agree with Kusma, the hook gets some catchiness by not explaining why he left. Leaves the readers some room to click, figure it out for themselves. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/they) 02:50, 17 April 2022 (UTC)

Fair enough. If there's a desire to promote ALT0 then I will not oppose it. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 03:52, 17 April 2022 (UTC)

ALT0 to T:DYK/P2 without image

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Ulf Merbold/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Hawkeye7 (talk · contribs) 20:11, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

Taking this one. Review to follow. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:11, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

• Thanks for taking this on! I'll make some changes now but I'll probably be slow in responding over the next few days (travelling). —Kusma (talk) 20:54, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

Lead

• Link West Germany, East Germany, ESA, Spacelab D-1, Spacelab D-2

  Linked. —Kusma (talk) 20:54, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

Early life and education

• Link prisoner of war, cosmonaut, West Germany

  Done.

• "died on 23 February 1948" Rest of article uses Polish date format

  Oh yeah. I made this stupid decision that mdy was probably more suited to the article and I find it hard to remember...

• "dismissed from her service in school " -> "dismissed from her school"

  OK

• East Germany is used before it is linked

  Moved

• Remove the comma after fn 3

  done

• New paragraph before "After graduating"

  OK

• "decided to go to Berlin" Suggest "West Berlin" here.
• "crossing the border" Technically speaking, this was not a border. Suggest rephrasing.

  Turned it into "crossing into West Berlin" and rephrased very slightly. Let me know if you think it still needs work.

• "until the Berlin Wall was built" add the year. (1961)

  Done

• "After the doctorate" -> "After completing his doctorate"

  Done

Astronaut training

• Link ESA, Memorandum of Understanding, astronaut

  Done

• Define ESA on first mention

  Done

• " so remained payload specialist" -> so remained a payload specialist"
• New paragraph at "In 1982"

  Done

• "an announcement of opportunity" does not sound like English. "a call for applicants"?

  It's in the source and seems to be ESA terminology. I have Uppercased it as an "Announcement of Opportunity" as used also in Krige, Russo & Sebesta 2000.

• " Fifty-three of these underwent an interview and assessment process that considered their engineering skills and physical health from September 1977." -> Fifty-three of these underwent an interview and assessment process in September 1977 that considered their engineering skills and physical health."

  Did a similar reordering.

• " Chrétien later flew to space" -> " Chrétien later flew in space"

  Reworded.

• "The position of payload specialist was introduced by NASA for the first Spacelab flight" The term was in use by 1972; see Croft & Youskauskas 2019, p. 12

  Thanks, I wasn't aware that it had been discussed earlier. Tried to clarify.

• "went to Houston for NASA training in 1978" Should introduce the JSC here

  Done.

• "Merbold did not meet NASA's medical requirements" Any idea what was wrong?

  No idea. Or more precisely, I don't think anything was wrong per se, he just "only" met something like the usual pilot standards but not NASA's near superhuman specifications.

• "From January 1982" -> "in January 1982"

  Done, and replaced "underwent" by "started".

• "the crew at Johnson Space Center" Sounds like we are talking about the flight crew only, which was not the case. And it should be "the Johnson Space Center"

  Reworded. But many sources omit the definite article for the Space Centers, for example Shapland/Rycroft.

First Space Shuttle mission

• Break paragraph at "The Spacelab mission"
• replace "circa" with "about"
• Paragraph break before "On one of the last days in orbit"
• Use a.m. and p.m. for times instead of AM and PM (or am and pm). (MOS:TIME)
• "on December 8, 1983, 6:47 pm EST" -> "at 6:47 p.m. EST on December 8, 1983"
• Although the picture of the launch is nice, they are a dime a dozen. I would pref one of the ones of Merbold e.g. File:S09-10-613 - STS-009 - Ulf Merbold on flight deck - DPLA - d53b7f2b160c6ecd73ff8d18ba5c831e.jpg

  All done. I hadn't seen that picture before, nice to have another one of young Merbold. I've moved the crew image to the top. —Kusma (talk) 18:34, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

Ground-based astronaut work

• "From 1984" -> "in 1984"
• "From 1984, Merbold was involved in the Spacelab D-1 mission, which was funded by West Germany.[1][60] He was the backup payload specialist for the mission, which was numbered STS-61-A as a Space Shuttle flight, carried out on Challenger from October 30 to November 6, 1985.[61][62]" -> "In 1984, Merbold became the backup payload specialist for the Spacelab D-1 mission, which was funded by West Germany. The mission, which was numbered STS-61-A, was carried out on Challenger from October 30 to November 6, 1985."

  Yep, that is better. —Kusma (talk) 18:43, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

Second Space Shuttle mission

• Why not use a pic of Merbold?

  I already use a picture of Merbold at the time of the mission in the infobox.

Euromir mission

New paragraph starting at "Merbold launched"

Done.

Later career

• "From January 1995, shortly after the Euromir mission, Merbold led the astronaut department" -> "In January 1995, shortly after the Euromir mission, Merbold became the head of the astronaut department"

  Done.

• "He retired on July 30, 2004, but continued to do counselling work for ESA." -> "He retired on July 30, 2004, but continued to do consulting work for ESA."

  Yes, of course. Embarrassing translation error, fixed.

Personal life

• Suggest renaming section "Private life"

  "Personal life" seems common enough, e.g. in Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin and John Young (astronaut).

• Link commercial pilot license

  Done.

Hawkeye7 (discuss) 23:38, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

• Hawkeye7, thank you for the review! I have implemented your suggestions so far. Please let me know if there is anything else, or if you think anything important is missing. —Kusma (talk) 18:50, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

@Hawkeye7, anything else? I'm still travelling, but will be able to respond by Thursday at the latest. —Kusma (talk) 09:10, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

Been travelling too, but can pass the article now. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:00, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

1. Is it well written?

   A. The prose is clear and concise, and the spelling and grammar are correct:

   Still a bit awkward in parts; original may have been translated from German

   Apparently I was thinking more in German than usual. I'll have to try to fix this later. —Kusma (talk) 20:00, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

   B. It complies with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation:

2. Is it verifiable with no original research?

   A. It contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline:

   B. All in-line citations are from reliable sources, including those for direct quotations, statistics, published opinion, counter-intuitive or controversial statements that are challenged or likely to be challenged, and contentious material relating to living persons—science-based articles should follow the scientific citation guidelines:

   C. It contains no original research:

   D. It contains no copyright violations nor plagiarism:

3. Is it broad in its coverage?

   A. It addresses the main aspects of the topic:

   B. It stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style):

4. Is it neutral?

   It represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each:

5. Is it stable?

   It does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute:

6. Is it illustrated, if possible, by images?

   A. Images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content:

   B. Images are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions:

7. Overall:

   Pass or Fail:

• Although it's not a requirement, I'm not fond of the Google book links, and linking to Worldcat is pointless given OCLC references. I was also disappointed that no use was made of Merbold's book, although it is in German and I haven't read it. I also have a feeling that he may be a celebrity in Germany. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 23:30, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

Copy Editing article for clarity

I've reached out to Kusma in regards to the copy edit guild request for this page- it will be my first full article copyedit, if still desired.

For now I'm fixing a few superficial structural and grammatical points on the page, and listing in this talk thread the larger issues I identify:

First, I noticed that there's a somewhat unnatural interweaving in the "Life and Education" section between the subject's specific accomplishments and life events, and important supporting context about the geopolitical state of Germany at this time. Additionally, there is some jumping around on the topic of being separated from, then united with, his mother.

Given the go-ahead, I would likely choose to separate these three threads, keeping them all in the same section but handling them in deliberate order: likely first the context of East/West Germany, then his educational progress, then the impact of his educational locations on being able to see his mother.

Will continue to add thoughts here! Let me know if I make any mistakes- while I'm very experienced in English language editing, and moderately experienced in reading and translating from German sources, I'm brand new to the complexities of WP MOS ☺️

Chiselinccc (talk) 06:25, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

I also want to add that, while I will be detailing small issues with the write-up here, one of the reasons I wanted to start my CE journey with this article (besides my moderate fluency in German serving use) was because I found it so impressive in its depth and breadth.

I have no previous knowledge of the topics at hand, and am still able to follow even the more technical content without difficulty, learning a lot along the way!

I've been a Wikipedia fan and WMF donator for years, and this is by far one of the most detailed articles I've ever come across. Please accept any critiques I delineate here within the context of trying to further polish an *amazing* article to begin with! 🚀

Chiselinccc (talk) 06:31, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

Wondering whether "uretal stone" in Astronaut training paragraph 3 should be linked to "kidney stone" instead of "ureters".

From my initial review it seems like the same thing, but "ureter" is a highly technical term I'd never encountered before (and the linked article just addressing the ureters as medical organs, not the calcified "stone" of the medical condition being mentioned). Still pretty cool to learn what a ureter is, of course. Chiselinccc (talk) 06:35, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

Additional thoughts after first one-over:

The context of his experiments on microgravity are regularly invoked, and it might benefit readers new to this topic (like myself!) to link to what that means- the closest page I could find was this, is it correct to link microgravity to?

https://wiki.eso.workers.dev/wiki/Micro-g_environment?wprov=sfla1

Additionally, we use the term "materials science" a number of times, and at least once it falls alongside "life sciences"- my admittedly un-expert assumption is that the grammatical form should be "material scienceS" just like "life sciences", but want a topic expert to confirm! Chiselinccc (talk) 06:58, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

The German original text in Merbold's book says "Harnleiterstein, which means a kidney stone that moves into the ureter and gets stuck. I've tried to translate that as closely as possible. I think both links are acceptable, but probably the kidney stone link is better at explaining the condition? I have linked microgravity as suggested. The expression "materials science" also confused me when I first saw it, but it is correct: it is the science (singular) of materials (plural). For example, you can study materials science and engineering. Some older books call it "material science" but the modern literature overwhelmingly uses "materials science". —Kusma (talk) 08:48, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

Date format

Hi, could you please revert this edit? The article has consistently used mdy for the last 20 years, and the issue has been discussed at the FAC (there are close connections to NASA). Please do not change long-standing date formats without consensus on the talk page. —Kusma (talk) 19:08, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

DMY is correct but whatever - either way the article was not consistent and used both DMY and MDY throughout. I have amended. GiantSnowman 19:27, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

It was consistent mdy when it passed GA and when it became a FA, and has been mdy for almost all of its history. —Kusma (talk) 20:16, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

The "close connections" to NASA is not relevant. Merhold is German, and the fact that he spent a few years at NASA doesn't override the fact that most of his career was in Europe. For mdy to be relevant to a European he/she should have had the overwhelming majority of his/her career in the US (or the few other mdy using countries). The referred disucssion at the FAC was not a discussion, it was a statement by a single user. Also, this discussion belongs on the talk page of the article, so I am copying it to here, and reverting. --Marbe166 (talk) 19:50, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Of course it is relevant. I don't know whether this was what caused the original author to choose American English and mdy 20 years ago (he is dead so we can't ask). In any case I (main author of the expansion and FA nominator) don't see a strong reason to overrule MOS:DATERET, and neither did the several experienced reviewers at WP:FAC. The article's sources are mostly mdy or in German. —Kusma (talk) 20:36, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Strong national ties to the topic exist by the fact that he is German, as explained above. Also, American English doesn't automatically mean mdy. --Marbe166 (talk) 20:48, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

I agree that he is German. His notability is mostly derived from working with NASA as the Federal Republic of Germany's first astronaut, a rather American experience that is the main focus of the article. —Kusma (talk) 21:02, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

He is an ESA astronaut, not a NASA astronaut. GiantSnowman 21:27, 28 November 2023 (UTC)