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The final report of an independent fact-finding mission sponsored by the EU concludes, that Georgia started the 2008 South Ossetia war in August, 2008, but both sides are responsible for the escalation. BBC, New York Times
This is a major investigation into the causes of the 2008 South Ossetia war, which was one of last year's major international events. The war was featured on ITN a year ago, so it would seem only fair that it would do so again, now that we have more neutral and objective information about it. The article has been updated [1]. Offliner (talk) 17:05, 30 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think merges would be best; they happened within 24 hours of each other in the same hemisphere, yes, but are otherwise unconnected geologically and culturally. Radagast (talk) 19:16, 30 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
This still hasn't been posted, despite it being requested yesterday. The Samoan earthquake and tsunami is already mentioned, why not this one? Rawr (talk) 04:01, 1 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
We might reword the the previous adding this headline to one already present, or else we can post it as a separate headline which course of action should we go for ?--yousaf46505:05, 1 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
This is clearly a major event with reports of thousands dead and should have been posted some time ago as a seperate and distinct article, not lumped in with the Samoan earthquake. Instead no mention of it but we can read about an 86 year old pianist who probably shouldn't even be on ITN.yorkshiresky (talk) 05:39, 1 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Former MEPPatricia McKenna promises legal action against any newspapers found carrying the Commission's guide, with legal advisers to Europe's Council of Ministers expressing "some concern" about its content. (The Irish Times)
A 14-year-old schoolgirl in Coventry, England, who died after being given a cervical cancer vaccine as part of that country's national immunisation programme is found to have suffered from a tumor in her heart and lungs. (The Times)(BBC)(MSNBC)
Those in power in Honduras empower police to quash "unauthorised" gatherings as PresidentManuel Zelaya calls on his supporters to march on the three-month anniversary of his fall, saying it will be "the final offensive". (The Guardian)
An Eldoret operation commences to close down Kenya's largest camp for people forced to flee their homes during the 2007–2008 Kenyan crisis ethnic violence. (BBC)
A police officer who served at the G20 demonstrations in London in April 2009 is to face a charge of assaulting a woman with a baton after becoming involved in a confrontation at a vigil for Ian Tomlinson. (The Times)(The Daily Telegraph)
Oxfam launches an emergency appeal for £9.5 million for Ethiopia and other East African countries to fight the worst drought in a decade. (BBC)
Former PeruvianPresidentAlberto Fujimori pleads guilty to bribery and illegal phone-tapping of journalists, businessmen and opposition politicians. (BBC)
Weak Oppose I don't exactly see this as news. I'm very happy for Mr. Pineda, but actors win awards all the time - while this is certainly a special case, I don't think it warrants an ITN mention. Master of Puppets - Call me MoP! :D18:19, 28 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Do you have a reason for thinking this? And is it compulsory that it is actual news in a traditional sense or what is it that defines the boundaries of news? By the way, it has a page now. --candle•wicke20:38, 28 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'd call this more of a feel good story than news. I don't think that being the first actor with Down's Syndrome to win an award at the San Sebastian film festival is all that big. Maybe if he was the first to win an Oscar, it would be notable. --PlasmaTwa221:28, 28 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps you are right about it being a feel good story... but he is the first actor to win an award at any international film festival which was why I nominated it. That and the controversy which has resulted. --candle•wicke23:32, 28 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
First what sort of actor? The first actor with Down's syndrome is probably true. The first actor with a disability of any kind, I think is highly unlikely even if the source makes the claim. Even your original paragraph is actually slightly contradictory. Deafness is often considered a disability [4] yet as you say, a deaf person won an Oscar. Okay the Academy Awards perhaps aren't an international film festival so maybe you can say that it isn't an international film prize but even so, it's seems possible that she won an award at some international film festival. In fact there's even a Festival for Cinema of the Deaf according to her article. And I would expect it likely people with other physical disabilities, e.g. amputees, people with blindness, paraplegics may have won awards. The more likely thing is that Pablo Pineda is the first actor with significant mental impairment to win an award. Nil Einne (talk) 04:38, 29 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Support. 2009 Francophone Games? 46 countries. Openings of similar games listed at ITNR, can't think of any reason not to have the French ones. --candle•wicke 10:44 am, Today (UTC+1)
I am not to sure about this. If anything this should be listed at WP:ITN/FE, as it doesn't end until October 6. If there are no objections, I will move it over to the Future Events page. Cargoking talk 10:48 am, Today (UTC+1)
Moved it back. Sorry, I confused myself. I was telling myself (even though I knew it wasn't!!) a knockout competition where an overall winner would emerge at the end. Support. Cargoking talk 09:58, 28 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Someone has added three paragraphs on the opening ceremony alone; Xinhua says more than 70 million people watched it across the globe. Mention of a traditional dance being performed so I've added a picture. Suggest: The opening ceremony of the 2009 Jeux de la Francophonie begins in Beirut, Lebanon, featuring a mass rendition of the traditional Lebanese dance, the Dabke(pictured). --candle•wicke20:56, 28 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Not ready until the title is decided (when it is, I can post it). And without dance in ITN blurb, that's not something ITN would report. --Tone20:59, 28 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose: There might be many nations involved, but it does not seem to be based around a very high profile event. There are 7 sports involved (tiny compared to Asian, Commonwealth or Pan-American Games), of which the football is a U20 competition unrecognised by FIFA, and for which players from top teams are not released, Women's Basketball, with almost entirely amateur players; and Judo, Boxing, Table Tennis, Beach Volleyball and Athletics (track and Field for our US readers), with few genuinely world class competitors in any event. It may be an important cultural/political bonding event, but important top level sport it is not. Kevin McE (talk) 08:41, 30 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Four people injured in a South African plane crash in Durban on Thursday are still recovering in hospital. (IOL)
ITN candidates for September 27
Big deal
Hugo Chávez
I've discovered today that Africa and South America have been meeting all weekend in Venezuela. Anyway, they've done several things but one is the setting up of a new bank. Argentina, Bolivia, Brazil, Ecuador, Paraguay, Uruguay and Venezuela are all involved and the deal was signed last night. Surely this summit is notable enough for ITN? However, it is being virtually ignored by the UK and US (the BBC hardly bothers to notice it, yet it is given broad coverage by Xinhua) so that might not be to everybody's tastes... --candle•wicke20:10, 27 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
What exactly needs cleaning up though? Citations (10), original research (?), I've seen worse. Can anyone see why it is tagged for those? --candle•wicke10:34, 28 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I was mainly concerned about the fact that the paragraph relating to this event has no refs. I also do not like to see articles with maintenance tags on on the main page, but that's just personal preference, I don't think there's a policy on it - Dumelow (talk) 16:23, 28 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
He has been arrested, after living as a celebrity fugitive for 31 years. I think this, being a high-profile case involving several countries, is notable enough for ITN. Of course we should wait for a verdict. Does anyone support? --BorgQueen (talk) 19:39, 27 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
As far as I know he has just been arrested and is in Swiss custody. According to the article the US has 60 days to formally request his extradition which may then be subject to a judicial review by the Swiss courts. So it could be a long time before he reaches the US let alone receives a sentence - Dumelow (talk) 20:26, 27 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
A spokesman for the Swiss justice ministry was quoted as saying "we now have to verify if Polanski can actually be extradited." I've heard more resounding statements of confidence! I've a feeling that this will end up as a damp squib, which is why I suggest waiting. Physchim62(talk)21:06, 27 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Support We can certainly run another entry if he gets extradited; as stated above that should take a while, if it happens. I think just the fact that he has been arrested is an extremely significant event. — JakeWartenberg22:51, 27 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Support. This is a significant development in a famous long-standing case. Sensitivity to BLP concerns requires all mention of charges against him or actions taken with regard to him to be reliably sourced, but providing this is done this appears relevant and notable. *Dan T.* (talk) 00:59, 28 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with candlewicke: all that's happened so far is that he's been arrested. Lot's of people get arrested everyday, including some quite famous people, but we don't usually put it on ITN. Switzerland might yet refuse to extradite, which would cause an even bigger fuss. If Switzerland does extradite, Polanski would then have to be sentenced for a crime he committed (he pleaded guilty) more than thirty years ago. Either way, I think an ITN piece at this point is premature. Physchim62(talk)01:44, 28 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Support. This arrest is international news, and the article has been updated to reflect the news. If the extradition occurs, that will probably be ITN-worthy, too. Some commenters here may be awaiting a verdict or some finding of guilt, but Polanski's guilt was adjudicated in 1977—on his own guilty plea. If his arrest results in extradition, the question in American courts will be one of sentencing (unless he is able have his conviction overturned). GreenGourd (talk) 02:12, 28 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per the many others who have stated that we should wait until an outcome. This is the standard procedure for any criminal case on ITN and there is no reason why we should change this, just because the person involved is a little bit more famous than most --Daviessimo (talk) 07:47, 28 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
CDU/CSU won by quite a big margin. When the article is updated, I believe it is safe to put this on ITN. Regarding the coalitions, no need to hurry, we just highlight the winner. --Tone16:41, 27 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Official provisional results should be available here (still an empty table as I write). Otherwise, it seems clear that Angela Merkel is the winner, with a 10% lead over the social democrats. Physchim62(talk)19:33, 27 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm, we can't actually put up numbers of seats until all the 299 constituencies have been counted, 'thanks' to the somewhat complicated German electoral system… There's no dispute about the result (the article has already been updated in that respect), just about the exact numbers. Physchim62(talk)23:54, 27 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Could the prose be extended a bit? At the moment, the article consists almost only of results tables. When there's more prose, I am ready to post it. --Tone19:34, 28 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
No, another time, not another term! I read it wrong first time around too! His term has been extended until they are actually in a position to hold elections. Physchim62(talk)01:38, 28 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
30 African and South American leaders arrive to attend, with 60 countries being represented. (CCTV)(IOL)
South AfricanPresidentJacob Zuma says during the opening of the summit that the South-South union between South American and African regions will contribute to the development of both. (Xinhua)
Venezuela's PresidentHugo Chávez says regional governments are to sign an agreement to create a Bank of the South with startup capital of 20 billion US dollars. (Wales Online)
Twenty-two large banks in Europe may have accumulated credit losses of close to €400 billion for this year and next, according to officials who have seen a draft of conclusions of “stress tests” conducted by European regulators. (New York Times)
Mabey and Johnson are fined £5 million for violating the Iraq oil-for-food programme and trying to influnece officials in Jamaica and Ghana. It is the "the first conviction in this country [UK] of a company for overseas corruption and for breaking the UN Iraq sanctions". Any thoughts? Not sure how common it is to see compaines fined for violating the oil for food agreement, our article lists lots of allegations but not many convictions - Dumelow (talk) 09:08, 26 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Two hundred familes from North and South Korea are allowed to cross the border to visit relations in the first resumption of family reunions between teh countries in two years. (BBC), notable? - Dumelow (talk) 09:20, 26 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The effects of the storm are already bad enough so this can go on ITN as soon as you feel the article is in decent shape. --Tone20:03, 26 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks! Any chance of getting the quality any better? I appreciate your life must be pretty hard right now. It's amazing you're still online. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 19:46, 27 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Still, no citations. It's certainly a detailed article. It's on ITN/R so I guess it's just a matter of waiting for the article to be suitable.--Johnsemlak (talk) 05:17, 27 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
And why do you think this? You're comparing a fiddler to a pianist. And the pianist has a lot more going for her than Grammy Awards as well. Also, in winning a Grammy, Krauss would be winning her national award, whereas de Larrocha, being from an entirely different continent, would certainly not. Has Krauss won anything outside North America? Krauss began her career as recently as 1985 and didn't release an album until 1987? A fiddler who won some local contests at the age of ten versus a pianist who has been performing since the age of three and had her orchestral debut at the age of 11? I'm very sorry but, as I'm looking more and more in disbelief at the two, no comparison in my opinion. And it would hardly be all that surprising that an American has the most Grammy Awards either. --candle•wicke04:47, 27 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Didn't Bono and his band had the most Grammys in the last 10 years or something? And two British women were in contention for "Best New Artist" aka the award nobody wants to win. And what's this double standard on fiddlers vs. pianists? –HowardtheDuck04:59, 27 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I think it's unfair to rate the Grammys as 'some local award' as they receive massive international media attention and are regularly won by foreign artists. The fact that Larrocha has won multiple Grammys is certainly evidence of her notability.--Johnsemlak (talk) 05:38, 27 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, I think this person wasn't as prolific in releasing content as say, Krauss or U2, so that'll probably explain she has lesser awards than Krauss. Plus, I'm willing to bet Chris Martin is prouder of his Grammy trophies than his BRIT Awards. –HowardtheDuck07:49, 27 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Can I just ask Howard, why every time someone makes a nomination you always bring it back to criticising the UK and Europe or sarcastically claiming that some US or Filipino person or thing you like won't make it. The whole purpose of discussing ITN items is to discuss the merits of them and compare them with similar like for like items. As Candlewicke has pointed out, you are not comparing like for like because Alison Krauss is in the middle of her career, so you don't know what she will go on to achieve in the future, whilst Alicia de Larrocha was, at the age of 86, very much at the end of hers. Why not go one step further and oppose on the grounds that a six year old you know just won his school music competition and is likely to outperform and out sell every musician ever in the history of the world. As I've said a thousand times before, you or me or anyone else not knowing a person does not mean they are not notable - that is at the most extreme level a personal bias. I've never heard of Alison Krauss, which is not unsuprising, as she is predominantly a bluegrass and country musician, which is not a big style over here in Europe. However, I would never oppose on those grounds or because I thought a similar band who I liked wouldn't make it because I can recognise that she is highely regarded within the music industry (or at least the US music industry). Therefore when you weigh in on the merits of a nomination, please don't bring in your biases or make unhelpful sarcastic comments. --Rant Over-- --Daviessimo (talk) 08:16, 27 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
One interesting issue I see here is that it seems to me that WP ITN views the death of someone in the middle of their career as more notable than someone as the very end of it, because the actual death becomes a bigger news item, and the death can be explained as having international impact. Plus it means its more likely that the WP article will meet the article update requirement. Could it be that that actually works against Larrocha? (Though I should note that Larrocha's article is adequate as far as I can tell.)--Johnsemlak (talk) 09:36, 27 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Yes and no, Les Paul was posted and he was 94. And (even though I nominated it) I was surprised at that as it encountered some opposition and he was quite old. I disagree with being biased when it comes to differing musical styles. This person may have done for piano what Les Paul did for guitar (I don't know and I don't have any other pianists for comparison). Sorry about bringing a guitarist into it but if we can have a fiddler spoken of here, why not? I might not know anything about de Larrocha but it doesn't mean I would oppose—ITN will soon be full of stories from the lives of modern day celebrities if it becomes about fame. This person seems to have had a different type of achievement—not the one where she is known for reality television or selling her wedding to a magazine and not the type where her career highlight was winning one Grammy for all her achievements—she had several other awards internationally throughout her career and the content of the sources speaks for itself. This is notable enough in my opinion. --candle•wicke13:42, 27 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Photographs of SpanishPrime MinisterJosé Luis Rodríguez Zapatero and his family are published in the United States and subsequently published on the front pages of newspapers in his home country. A controversy occurs as many Spaniards have never before seen the children of the intensely private Prime Minister. (The Guardian)
Four people are charged in Greece over recent bombing attacks, in the first arrests brought against suspected terrorists in several years. (IOL)(Canadian Press)
Nigerian MPs ask the government to investigate the status of Chinese citizens living in the country, after allegations that Nigerians in China have been mistreated. (BBC)
I have expanded some more and literally exhausted the AP articles on it which are the only sources I have found for it. I might (if I have time) be able to find some more to add tomorrow but as it stands it is already longer than one of the ITNs on the main page - Dumelow (talk) 22:21, 26 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The update it minimal, although well-sourced. Possibly sufficient though. I don't really like the proposed "an area the size of France" - seems a little tabloid-esque? Maybe better to give the actual area. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 11:10, 29 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Absence of any mention of G-20 in Pittsburgh?
Have you seen the tarmac at Pittsburgh International Airport, US Air Force One, Russian, Chinese, Australian, Italian, French, Japanese, Brazilian heck the king of Ethopia took his air force one to PIT too. NBC Nightly news is broadcasting from Pittsburgh last night and tonight, Jon Stewart has a crew there with the Daily Show, CBS ABC CNN MSNBC FNC FBC BBC CBC NYT WP AP UPI . . . need I provide more (trust me the links are red hot all over). Please add this to the news before the summit is over on Friday night. Thank you for your quick response in advance.Hholt01 (talk) 06:46, 25 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Well I've checked a few of those and am assuming they're all television shows, presenters, etc. WP? Wikipedia? Warsaw Pact? The trouble is you haven't even provided any links... also, why before it is over? Most of what gets added has to wait its turn (elections wait for results, etc). Also, has anything actually happened there? Didn't all these countries meet the other day? --candle•wicke08:04, 25 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Please ask me to load this page up with every news link that exists, I will be happy to provide the first 17 million news links for free. I don't want to sound flippant but you kind of have to hide from this news (its on every page one and every news chanel), and the White House link was provided 24 hours ago. Hholt01 (talk) 00:19, 26 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, we're all fully aware that a G20 summit is going on, we are likewise aware of the 64th UNGA session. We are waiting for them to end so we can put some concrete results up. Perhaps before criticizing ITN/C, you should read the comments above or read previous postings to see how we've done these before. We aren't a breaking news site, we're an encyclopedia. We don't put something up until we know what's happened. Therequiembellishere (talk) 00:23, 26 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, is this the one where Britain, France and the United States criticise Iran for "breaking rules that all nations must follow" and "endangering the security of the world"? I barely noticed as they always seem to be sniping at one another in this contradictory manner that it doesn't really seem like news now... Sarkozy issuing threats to other countries also sounds a bitfamiliar... --candle•wicke00:37, 26 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Isn't the main way to do this is to wait until they've announced that they'd done something already? Doesn't matter if it's familiar, Europe has tons of elections, the Western Pacific and North Atlantic has tons of cyclones we post them anyway... –HowardtheDuck03:20, 26 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Melting ice is pouring off Greenland and Antarctica into the sea far faster than was previously realised because of global warming, new research shows. (Irish Independent)
I'd support a revised headline for this; as-is, it doesn't sound very important. Men sentenced for killing a boy, boy was a visible minority; doesn't sound internationally important. Anyone got ideas on how to involve the unique aspect of it? Master of Puppets - Call me MoP! :D16:01, 25 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Support also - One point though - surely it should read 'the last Ottoman Prince', because by saying 'the last Ottoman' it implies there are no longer any people alive who are Ottomans by birth (which would be anyone born in Turkey pre-1923) --Daviessimo (talk) 20:09, 24 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
To be more precise, "the last surviving member of the Ottoman dynasty". I was sceptic about this at first but I support. very interesting story from historical perspective. --Tone21:32, 24 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
All the people on that list were born after the cut-off point so are probably not considered official Ottomans. This person is the last of the real pretenders who were around at the time. --candle•wicke21:59, 24 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It still doesn't sound right to me. The tag says "the last surviving pretender to the Ottoman throne" when the article Line of succession to the Ottoman throne lists Bayezid Osman as a living pretender to the Ottoman throne (with 24 others). Now I know none of them were born in what was the Ottoman Empire but they are all still pretenders to the Ottoman throne (at least, according to the article). All we can really say is that he was the last surviving Ottoman-born pretender or the last surviving pretender who wasn't born in exile - Dumelow (talk) 08:21, 25 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
If he is the last pretender, why does the article page that is bold show Bayezid Osman as the next pretender? And bearing the same family name no less! What a confusing contradiction Gabr-el00:41, 25 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
That page has now been updated to indicate Bayezid Osman as the current pretender. What exactly does "pretender" mean in this context, anyway? There's no indication that Ertuğrul Osman made any kind of even pro forma claim on the Ottoman throne, and the article on pretenders defines the term as "a claimant to an abolished throne or to a throne already occupied by somebody else," which implies that the individual has to make a claim on the throne. Thus, Ertuğrul Osman can't really be a pretender in that sense; and if we just mean "head of the Ottoman royal house," well, there is no shortage of new candidates, as the linked article indicates. There is a statement in Ertuğrul Osman's article that the was the "last pretender," but that has its source a BBC article that nowhere uses the term, so I'm going to remove it. --Jfruh (talk) 04:57, 25 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It appears that what makes Ertuğrul Osman unique is that he is the last heir to the throne who was born before the abolishment of the throne. Hence for a time he could rightly claim to be the heir (of an existing) throne. I'm not saying this is sufficient for including on ITN nor do I know how to summarise this on the main page but I presume it's why he's received the attention he has Nil Einne (talk) 08:39, 25 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Now that the articles are expanded, I think it was ok to remove it. If there are still pretenders around, he was not the last. --Tone11:16, 25 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
According to the BBC, rocks brought back by the Apollo missions and information from the Deep Impact probe and the Cassini satellite, have all previously detected moisture in the soil. I think the latest founding is simply that it is more extensive than first thought --Daviessimo (talk) 08:20, 24 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
This is the first confirmed citing of water (ice) on the surface of moon in respectable amount. BBC records "If you had a cubic metre of lunar soil, you could squeeze it and get out a litre of water," explained US researcher Larry Taylor.. here. This is big scientific news. --GPPande09:43, 24 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with Tone. To GPPande, my point was that given that they have said this before but then decided evidence was inconclusive we should wait until a true authority on science or space exploration publishes official findings rather than what the BBC or CNN say --Daviessimo (talk) 11:28, 24 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. To me, it seems like a lot of hype for not much of an advance. This isn't ice or anything, it's hydrated minerals, and minerals that are only hydrated at 0.1% at best (which is pretty dry by Earth standards, although admittedly not by lunar standards). 32 ounces of water (at most) for a ton of topsoil ain't much. Physchim62(talk)23:12, 24 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
i dont really think we can say 0.1% or hydrated minerals are less of a discovery. first time water molecules have been confirmed on moon. nasa clearly seems to think its a big discovery. i can see almost all science news sites/shows are covering it. it may not be big enough to cause some crazy race to moon to extract water missions but it will definitely impact future missions (as stated by nasa). i really think it should be posted but i will leave it to more discussion i guess. -- Ashish-g5503:17, 25 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
OK... honestly... there are plenty of valid arguments here in support of this item. I wonder why this newsworthy item has not been up yet? --Nosedown (talk) 07:05, 25 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Prime Minister of BhutanJigme Thinley describes an earthquake which hit the Himalayan kingdom on Monday as "one of the biggest disasters in recent times". (BBC)
Gay activists in South Africa welcome a life sentence for a man involved in the gang rape and murder of lesbianfootball star Eudy Simelane, one of the first women to openly live as a lesbian in her community of KwaThema. (BBC)
A man is shot dead in a clash between police and supporters of ousted HonduranPresidentManuel Zelaya, believed to be the first death since his return to the country. (RTÉ)
Hmm, well, I know we regularly post NASA launches but those are usually carrying people to space. It's not a first flight of any sort for India as far as I can tell.--Johnsemlak (talk) 20:16, 23 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
2009 Bhutan earthquake—nominated several days ago but that's the point. It is still in the news. Searches for survivors are ongoing. Thousands of people living in the open. Children buried under buildings. And now the Prime Minister has called it "one of the biggest disasters in recent times". He also says: "The first tremor lasted for almost five seconds, which is very long". Quake was even felt in India and Bangladesh. Would need expansion but does anyone think this is worthy of the Main Page now? --candle•wicke10:55, 23 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
New figures reveal that for the first time since 1995 more people emigrated from Ireland than immigrated there, with a growth of more than 40% from January–April 2009. Most of the emigrants are Eastern European or Irish nationals. (RTÉ)
I've never heard of him but he died of cardiac arrest at 54, not a very dissimilar situation to that of Michael Jackson. Don't know if they have anything else in common though. "A distinguished figure of Persian music", "held numerous international concerts in Asian and European countries including France, Germany, the UK, Sweden, the Netherlands and Denmark", "published four books on Persian music and the traditional instrument Santour", "one of the founding members of Aref and Sheyda ensembles, and Chavosh Artistic and Cultural Foundation". And "one of Iran’s most prominent musicians". --candle•wicke01:23, 22 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'd support, especially on a slow news day, but the article is still fairly stubby. If this is really ITN material, we should be able to find reactions to his death, etc., which just aren't there at the moment. I suggest we wait until our Farsi-fluent editors have teased a bit more out of this: then I would support. Physchim62(talk)11:58, 22 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Spanish doctor jailed for homicide through negligence of Nigeria's First Lady Stella Obasanjo
Hmm, it's a bit late now, but there is nada on this in the Spanish press. Unfortunately, such accidents/incompetencies are all too common here. I would recommend pulling this if anything better comes along. Physchim62(talk)11:53, 22 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I think it is pretty obvious from the BBC article that the person who died was a Pakistani national and Dilip Kumar (birthname Yousif Khan) is an Indian national and a Bollywood icon of the 1960s. How can anyone possibly mix the two people up? --128.211.201.92 (talk) 09:51, 23 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Lou Nuer militiamen kill more than 100 civilians and security force members in an attack in Sudan's Duk Padiet in Jonglei, the latest in a series of ethnic clashes. (BBC)
A judicial official says a 51-year-old man has confessed to sending threatening letters containing bullets to President of FranceNicolas Sarkozy and other prominent figures. (IOL)
Rescuers scour the sea off the Morocco coast for dozens of African migrants who are missing and feared dead after their boat capsized in an accident that kills eight others. (IOL)(ABC)(Xinhua)
Support - that could be the end of this world...God took away the legs of the serpent for tempting man into original sin. This is a sign that God has forgiven the serpent because he is getting ready to wind up this whole 'reality' experiment. TouLouse (talk) 17:34, 21 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Support I think the encyclopedic value is there, as I have never heard of a snake with a hand (And I don't understand the science behind that either). Certainly would be the most interesting post on itn in a while. --PlasmaTwa218:00, 21 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
To be honest I agree with Tone that this is more than likely a genetic mutation in the same way a human can be born with 5 or 6 limbs. Normally when we list items like this, they are based upon verifiable scientific evidence. --Daviessimo (talk) 18:14, 21 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure if it is comparable to that kind of mutation. A human naturally has arms and legs, but a snake doesn't, so when a snake grows a leg it is a little more notable imo. --PlasmaTwa221:17, 21 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Doesn't "suspended ban" mean they have escaped punishment? So unless this is in Canada they don't even have a criminal record. I'm not very sure if there is much here for ITN. They seem to have got away with whatever it was they did. --candle•wicke14:16, 21 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Support - I wouldn't say they have got away with it because there is still the posibility that were they to do anything else stupid (like McLaren regularly do) they could be banned from competing. Nonetheless, this is still a major scandal and is definately ITN worthy. Spying on another team or lying to the race stewards is one thing, but cheating in what is the top level of motorsport is in a whole other league. Anyway since when has the punishment, rather than the verdict been important in legal cases? As for a suggested blurb, how about "Renault F1 are given a 2 year suspended race ban by the FIA, after accepting a charge of conspiring to cause a deliberate crash at the 2008 Singapore Grand Prix" --Daviessimo (talk) 14:41, 21 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think so. Cannes and Venice, yes. Berlin, maybe. But Toronto...? Are we going to feature every single international film festival? --BorgQueen (talk) 09:10, 21 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I wasn't sure. I am not a great expert on which is the best film festival but have heard of Toronto, saw it was being reported internationally and also thought it offered a non-European alternative. Does it have a bad reputation? --candle•wicke09:30, 21 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Well one of the winners is openly lesbian so I'm sure she has a good chance if someone nominates her. :-P But, seriously, there is also the RAI Children’s Book Awards and the Scottish Style Awards ("one of the glitziest events of the year" so it must be encyclopedic) coming soon. I suppose it would be too much to include every national award so better to leave them all out I think. Perhaps the Lloyd's List Global Awards held in London are suitable though–featuring "many leading figures in the shipping industry" and reported today in Taiwan. --candle•wicke12:39, 21 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
well tiff is one of the biggest but i would not recommend until we make this ITNR. no point in posting one year and not another. i'll give it weak support but i would prolly give that Cannes too since i dont think the film festivals are that big a deal but that is just my POV. -- Ashish-g5515:32, 21 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
while at it. why are golden globes still in ITNR... i thought it was discussed that there is no point of putting them when we have the Academy awards. can we remove it from ITNR at same time. -- Ashish-g5520:58, 21 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Out of that list, I would only suggest Cannes and Venice, and on top of that Toronto. Those three are indisputably the three biggest in the world (Which order is debatable, though I'd put Toronto on top as the most important). --PlasmaTwa221:23, 21 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
And on the Golden Globes, I'm Switzerland. I don't think we really need Oscar Jr. posted anymore, given its recent knock in notability in recent years, but I don't mind if it stays. --PlasmaTwa221:26, 21 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The only other i would say that needs to be there is Sundance. its considered biggest for documentaries. so Toronto, Cannes, Venice and Sundance. -- Ashish-g5521:30, 21 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
If we add Toronto I would feel we also need to add Berlin, which is, as far as I'm aware, one of the biggest and most respected international film festivals. For me Cannes is certainly the most important as the Palm D'Or is easily to most prestigious prize in cinema - unless of course you come from the US ;). Venice is also notable, as are the Oscars. Regarding the US contingent, I would tend to agree that having two awards shows is probably too many, especially given that unlike the others they are not truly international events. However, as is the case with all US items of that nature, both are bound to be nominated even if they are not on ITNR. So to summarise, I think we have a clear concensus on Cannes, Venice, Toronto and the Academy Awards with room maybe for Berlin and the potential dropping of the Globes. Thoughts? --Daviessimo (talk) 21:49, 21 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I've added TIFF to ITNR. I'm not so sure about Berlin, and I think further discussion about dropping the Golden Globes should be at the ITNP discussion page. --PlasmaTwa222:05, 21 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not familiar with film festivals but in listing the Oscars, Cannes, Toronto, and Venice as ones to cover on ITN, what I find lacking is any non-Western film awards event. If we really want to have a 'international balance' perhaps we should simply have the Oscars and Cannes, plus something from outside Europe/N America? I could do without Venice and Toronto, really. Cannes is really the one besides the Oscars. Regarding this item, for now I Oppose--Johnsemlak (talk) 16:11, 22 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe old and respected amongst cinema enthusiasts but Venice doesn't nearly have the name recognition that Cannes does as a European film festival. People who don't know anything about cinema have heard of it, and it's known worldwide. Perhaps I'm ignorant but I think Venice is far less known.--Johnsemlak (talk)
i think we are forgetting that host city really does not matter since the festivals themselves are truly international. we just picked the biggest ones and most prestigious ones. just because it is hosted in toronto doesnt make it western... oscars are only ones that are more american but they are widely popular. -- Ashish-g5516:27, 22 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I think it does matter a bit. The Tokyo International Film Festival seems to give a more Asian slant to it's awards. Admittely I don't know anyting about it except what I've read on its Wikipedia page. I realize most festivals screen films from all over the world but I think most of the festivals under discussion here provide a European/N American point of view on cinema.--Johnsemlak (talk) 16:46, 22 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I would say the list could to without Venice and Berlin if I had to pick two. Cannes is the most well known worldwide, and Toronto is where the majority of Oscar contenders are first seen in North America. --PlasmaTwa219:15, 22 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Note: Berlin is the most attended in the world apparently. Venice is the oldest as has been said. I wouldn't describe myself as having a lot of knowledge of film festivals but I know more of Cannes, Venice, Berlin and Toronto than many of the countless others, e.g. Brussels, Istanbul, Locarno, Moscow, Thessaloniki, etc. It would be impossible to include them all but at least Berlin and Venice are "world's most attended" and "world's oldest". --candle•wicke20:22, 22 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
im not sure why the page that candlewicke posted doesnt have toronto in most frequent (not even listed... ), since it gets 300k+. berlin and toronto are usually head to head for most visited. Cannes is obviously considered prestigious and venice is oldest... we could have added sundance for documentaries but meh its ok we have enough. -- Ashish-g5520:51, 22 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
To illustrate a previous point I made, if we look at the People's choice award at teh TIFF, it has only twice been given to a non-western film (non N American or European or Australia/New Zealand) since 1978. The Golden Lion award has been given to non western films 12 times out of over 50 times. This may be cherrypicking data, but it's evidence to me that these are very pro-Western film events that pay little attention to the globe's major film centers, except Hollywood. So my personal opinion would be to drop Toronto and Venice--I would say Cannes covers this ground enough. To me the fact that Venice is the oldest film festival is hardly significant. Now, I may not be able to win this argument I concede. I would at least ask us to consider adding some film festivals to ITNR which highlight non-Western film better.
Also, this may be a personal point of view but I really think that many of these film festivals present a very narrow part of cinema. The most successful non-Hollywood film (in the West at least) this year by far is District 9 and it isn't winning or probably won't win any major festival awards, except possibly the Oscars where it may be a Best Picture contender. Adding Sundance helps this IMO at least because it gives attention to a different sort of film--documentaries.--Johnsemlak (talk) 21:16, 22 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
TIFF features well oer 300 films every year, including many films from Africa, Asia, and elsewhere. TIFF is where the majority of these films are first introduced to Western audiences. For example, Slumdog Millionare had its western premiere at TIFF. The fact that the People's Choice Award or Golden Lion does not mean they pay lttle attention to non-Western films; argurably that only means the best films at the festivals are from the West. While I cannot speak for Venice all that well, TIFF has been called second only to Cannes, and Roger Ebert said "although Cannes is still larger, Toronto is just as great....". Course I took that off the TIFF page. We also have to recognize that the West is the largest centre for film in the world, so to have the festivals we list all from the West isn't too farfetched. --PlasmaTwa201:03, 23 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
That may all be true but I think Slumdog Millionaire a not good example of any non-western perspective. It's a British movie with Indian actors and it takes place in India. It's not an Indian movie. That further emphasizes my point that the TIFF has a very Western perspective on cinema, which I think we had plenty of before TIFF was added to ITNR. And again I take issue with teh West being the center for world cinema. Hollywood is for sure, its films are popular all over the world. But beyond that the major centers of film are in Asia (Hong Kong, Japan, and Mumbai).--Johnsemlak (talk) 03:38, 23 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
(unindent) Well based on your rationale we should be getting rid of the Oscars rather than Berlin or Toronto, because it is by and far the least international and most Hollywood dominated. That is what I feel makes your logic flawed, because Berlin, Toronto, Venice and Cannes are all International and can't really accused as being anywhere near biased as biased as the Oscars. When you look at the winning nations of the Golden Bear, Palme d'Or or the Golden Lion, you've got countries from Asia, Africa, the Middle East, South America, North America and Europe - I mean you can hardly called that a western bias. I mean how many films that have won the Best Picture Oscar have come from Iran or Brazil or Taiwan??? --Daviessimo (talk) 08:42, 23 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Well, Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon did win 4 Oscars so I don't think the Oscars are totally American. I would agree that Toronto, Cannes, Venice etc are more international than the Academy awards but they don't represent such an international point of view of cinema (by international here I mean not just Europe). The key is the Oscars are awarded to films that, while nearly all American, are watched all over the world. The Oscars ceremony is a far bigger deal worldwide than even Cannes outside Europe--people stay up to watch it worldwide. Most people have never heard of many of the films featured at many of the European film festivals. Many people in Japan, Korea, India, China, etc, care little about Cannes, Venice, etc unless films from their own countries are screened there, and even then it's a much bigger deal, for example, in China when a Chinese film is featured at the Academy Awards, which does happen. And the Oscars are big deal in any event but because it features the worldwide blockbusters that are popular everywhere. And also, I still maintain that the European film festivals are heavily western in bias. The overwhelming majority of films that win the awards are from the West as I cited earlier.--Johnsemlak (talk) 15:00, 23 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Well that to me implies that you accept a double standard. When an international film festival based in Europe gives an award to a European film its it biased, but when a US film festival gives an award to an American film it's OK. At the end of the day, the criteria for inclusion should not be who wins but rather who is allowed to take part. No country from Africa or Asia has ever won the World Cup, but you wouldn't call that biased so why are you labelling the accusation at these award ceremonies. In exactly the same way that certain football clubs dominate the game internationally, certain cinema industries dominate internationally. Whether you like it or not 'internationally' films in the English, French and Spanish languages are the biggest (obviously India and China are huge domestic markets, but beyond the occasional film how big are these globally - even you have pointed out that one of the biggest ever Indian based films was actually made by the British film industry). For that reason it would be counterintuative to wipe the slate and get rid of all those awards that you feel are biased, because realistically you gain nothing. Instead, as BorgQueen has pointed out the better policy is to find international awards shows from other regions and add them. Why not Tokyo or Shanghai? Or what about Cairo or Kolkata? --Daviessimo (talk) 15:31, 23 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It's not that I accept a double standard, it's that the world accepts a double standard (assuming that this 'double standard' exists, but I won't argue that). American films are simply a bigger deal worldwide. People may not like that but it's the way the world is. Specifically, American films are the main films that are watched in large numbers in by people who don't speak English, though I'd say Japanese films are also doing very well globally. Your example of football clubs isn't parallel because football competitions are sporting events decided on the field, not by subjective judge panels. And I don't think the criteria should be who is allowed to take part, it should be the event's 'international importance or interest'. My point all along is that beyond Cannes, any of the Western film festivals have greatly exaggerated international interest, though they still may merit inclusion in ITNR. As for broadening the list of film events we include, I'd suggest the Indian Oscars equivalent, the Filmfare Awards, and maybe something similar from East Asia.--Johnsemlak (talk) 16:16, 23 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
But if you do that, you go from one biased awards ceremony (as you claim) to another - in this instance only Hindi language films from India are included. How you can assert that an awards ceremony based it Europe and has entrants from across the globe is biased, when you believe the Filmfare Awards isn't, in my mind, doesn't make any sense. Also, you criticise Venice or Toronto for their subjectivety in picking winning films, yet you yourself subjectively tells us that they are not as important as they are made out to be. Clearly the fact that ~500,000 people attend what is the world's largest film festival in Berlin doesn't mean anything or the fact that Toronto is held as one of the most highly regard awards in film. For me, whatever we choose to put up has to be based upon a clear criteria that is applied to all and not only a few. All of the items currently on ITNR meet the criteria for inclusion as they are international events of a large enough stature. Toronto, Berlin and Venice were selected above other because they are bigger, older and more prestigious than others available. We can expand to selection to include others, but it is imperative that any other selected have the same criteria applied. --Daviessimo (talk) 16:36, 23 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I admit I haven't considered the attendance figures of these events. I'm not sure how to rate that in terms of global interest. 300,000-500,000 people sounds like a large attendance, but I'd also be interested in global tv audience and media coverage. Sitting where I am in Russia film events besides Cannes and the Oscars generate relatively minor coverage, and the winning films don't get particular interest at the box office. But back to criteria, what are the criteria that we can apply? Do we simply include the highest attended?--Johnsemlak (talk) 16:53, 23 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
As far as I am aware international interest is the primary criteria and in this context given that as you say only the Oscars and possibly Cannes receive true global media coverage that interest comes from them being 'international' film festivals. Given that Venice, Cannes, Berlin and Toronto are all recognised by the FIAPF if you wanted to select another Asian based film festival you just need to find one linked to them. I think in that area Tokyo and Shanghai are the big international film festivals --Daviessimo (talk) 17:00, 23 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I'm cetainly out of my depth in debating the relative global interest of the Tokyo International Film Festival, the Shanghai International Film Festival, etc. I could be wrong but it seems to me that they are essentially the world's 5th and 6th most important film festival (or something like that, assuming that Cannes, Venice, Toronto, and Berlin represent the top four). I'm not sure that really adds any perspective. My suggestion of adding the Filmfare Awards was based on the fact that Bollywood is the largest film industry in the world and Filmfare is its premier awards ceremony (reasonably objective IMO), and also because I thought it would provide a real contrast to the current ITNR list of film awards. But I suppose it's not of sufficent global interest. The Japan Academy Prize would be a similar suggestion but again probably not of sufficient global interest. For me the main problem with having so many international film festivals as awards in ITNR is that is that aside from having a western slant (even Shanghai mostly gives its top award to European films; Tokyo seems to be more Asia-oriented) they don't seem to provide any contrast in terms of types of movies awarded, and many popular films or film genres are ignored, such as science fiction or anime. (I'll state for the record that perhaps I pushed my 'western bias' argument harder than I should have; actually, I think I'd strongly support the TIFF or similar events if I was sure they had sufficient global interest, even if they are moderately biased awards). The problem is I'm unaware of any obvious film award alternative to suggest. The Hugo Awards would be one idea. Also, the Annecy International Animated Film Festival. However, this may be a conversation better had at the ITNR discussion page.--Johnsemlak (talk) 17:53, 23 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The Oscar Best Picture is open only to films whose primary language is English; non-English films are awarded with the "Best Foreign Language Film" award, which is IMHO more extensive than any film festival best picture award since the field is wider; in some countries there are preliminaries in which their own Film Academy selects a film which would be that country's nominee to be uh... nominated. –HowardtheDuck11:45, 23 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
My goodness, that's a statistic and a half. Would "most populated visit by a non-native since X" be acceptable if it was any other country? --candle•wicke13:56, 21 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I was about to say "Yes if since X is more than a decade ago" but I certainly won't support if Paris Hilton drew that kind of crowd in, say, Japan... I suppose what made this concert more notable is the political criticism it drew. But nevermind if you don't think it's ITN-notable anyway. --BorgQueen (talk) 14:05, 21 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
If I understand, the shipping company's claim included the qualification that it was the first such navigation without assistance from icebreakers. I'm skeptical about this being truly the first time in history a commercial ship has sailed all the way around Russia's North. What is more significant to me is the ice melting to this extent. Dwr12 (talk) 04:40, 21 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Please consider that this voyage's significance might only be for not using icebreakers. The current wording suggests a commercial ship owned by westerners has never traveled north of Russia. Dwr12 (talk) 09:53, 24 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'd support this, but I don't think there were any titles disputed; although Marquez is a world champion in lightweight, the fought was fought at welterweight, and that'll affect its standing with the people here. One argument that can be used for this blurb was that Mayweather retired as the world #1, and Marquez is currently #2. –HowardtheDuck06:02, 20 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I think this sort of logic exists with a lot of the sports events posted in ITN. There's a clear (and understandable) preference for either world titles or titles that are of the highest possible level in a particular sport. The List of Recurring items on ITN lists a lot of sports events that aren't particularly notable on a global scale (like the championship of Gaelic Football in Ireland due to be posted today) but are posted because they are the top event of a particular sport. Since this boxing match doesn't meet the 'world title' unofficial standard, perhaps it's worth looking at global coverage to test its notability. It's a big headline at BBC Sport and the BBC News. It's not mentioned at Toronto Globe and Mail front page. It's mentioned on the front page of the L'Équipe website, but not that of the Gazetta Della Sport. It currently has no mention on main page of the Times of India sports section. It's mentioned in US papaers 1 but is not a particularly big headline, even in the sports sections.--Johnsemlak (talk) 10:24, 20 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, but I would disagree with "a lot of sports events that aren't particularly notable on a global scale" being linked to a Gaelic football ITN that has never even happened (see also what I said under that nomination) unless the AFL Grand Final and Superbowl (posted each year almost before anyone has even breathed) are included in that category too? I would argue that the Superbowl and AFL Grand Final are as important to the United States and Australia respectively, as well as those who follow them internationally, as the SFC Final is to Ireland and those who follow it internationally. Likewise any similar sport. It really depends where you are in the world. I don't know how it is possible to make a fair or indeed neutral exception to this without setting some sort of population limit or making some sources more important than others (not something I would agree with either). --candle•wicke13:56, 20 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Well, in the Super Bowl and the AFL Grand final you've listed two events that many people here would say have limited global interest because the sports are popular in only one country (though Amer Football is certainly popular in Canada. All three events are on the ITN list of recurring events and though I may have expressed some skepticism there I wasn't debating that. For what it's worth, in Russia, I can watch the Super Bowl every year on Russian tv (link) but I can't find any way in Russia to watch the GAA All Ireland final in Russia (links in Russian 1 & 2).--Johnsemlak (talk) 17:11, 20 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Nah, it's a losing battle anyway with these Irish sporting events. Maybe next year we'll have Linfield (yes, it's across the border but...) winning their millionth double. Take for example, the 2008 tournament's article had 3,600 article views for September 2008. I know of a sporting tournament article in the other side of the world with 8x as much more views but that won't get posted... –HowardtheDuck17:46, 20 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
If it is an unrepresented sport on ITN, will you please nominate it when it occurs then? You mention these sports all the time but, not only do we never see a nomination (never mind an update), now you're vaguely referring to a sport which nobody can know because you haven't even identified it. How can they possibly be posted in those circumstances? Linfield—is that the association football team in Northern Ireland? Where is the connection there with Gaelic games? --candle•wicke18:15, 20 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
So what if there were no titles on the line. This is Floyd's first fight out of retirement. The man is the biggest name in boxing and this fight was much hyped. Marquez is a greater fighter too. Why should titles be the decision factor in whether or not this gets included? Richard (talk) 15:27, 20 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'll try to sort it out a bit, especially on the "there are no title belts on the line argument." Before, boxers at disparate weight classes won't meet each other even for a non-title bout, for either they'd have to lose weight where they'll get weaker, gain weight and be slower, or change from their normal fighting weight to suit their opponent or meet at a compromise weight division which can affect their chances. Ever since the De La Hoya-Pacquiao boxing match, where they met at a compromise weight, and where the bout was successful, there are now several bouts where boxers face each other at a compromise weight and they don't stake their belts, even boxers such as Marquez who had jumped two weight divisions just to face Mayweather for this bout. Title belts are are mere decorations now anyway (especially on the WBC where there gimmicks such as "diamond belts," "emeritus champions," etc.) as several boxers don't have title belts in their "current" divisions (Manny Pacquiao, for example).
Now I'm not saying we'd do the same for all bouts, like a flyweight meets a featherweight in a bantamweight bout that nobody cares about. Bouts such as these come in once or twice a year it's easy to pick ones which can be added at ITN. –HowardtheDuck16:34, 20 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
To counter my previous argument boxing is certainly one of the world's most followed sports and this was a major fight even if it wasn't a title fight. I do think sometimes ITN is over-reliant on rules such as it must be a 'world title'. There should be room for more subjective factors in considering such events.--Johnsemlak (talk) 17:36, 20 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Why does a fight have to have titles on the line to be included it here? This is not the boxing of the old days were there was just one title. Today there are four "major" titles that force fighters to fight certain guys and if they don't they strip them of their titles. As a result, the titles have lost significance over the years. Richard (talk) 21:44, 20 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
So if a most dramatically named attack page is created which achieves several thousand views it is therefore a measure of how notable that page is? --candle•wicke12:45, 21 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Even though for me, title fights are what we should be listing on ITN, I think the issue here that has been raised is whether or not title fights are as big as they used to be. The Ring article seems to suggest not and in that case my feeling would be if this is a big fights in boxing terms then it should go up. For that reason tentative support --Daviessimo (talk) 14:46, 21 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Actually the full title is "FIBA Europe Championship for Men 2009". It is still an intercontinental championship that doubles as a qualifying tournament. We shouldn't parallel these with the association football intercontinental championships that are primarily that, intercontinental championships, and the qualifying (to the Confederations Cup) isn't really the purpose of winning. –HowardtheDuck08:13, 14 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Support. This is the European Basketball championship, and is a heavily followed event in many countries. It doubles as an Olympic qualifying tourney the same way the African Cup of Nations is a qualifying tournament for the World Cup.--Johnsemlak (talk) 09:09, 20 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Er wait, the Africa Cup of Nations isn't the World Cup qualifer, it's a Confederations Cup qualifier (but that's not the reason why they compete). Basketball operates quite differently as you may have noted. –HowardtheDuck18:12, 20 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Shouldn't there be some sort of prose update? There's a "qualifying" section and something on a "mascot" but nothing on what actually happened. That shouldn't be too much to ask if it is so heavily followed. --candle•wicke22:44, 20 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Object only played in one country adn two enclaves. No significant amount amount of imports (probably none). Same for AFL, save for usually 1-4 guys out of 640 are from Ireland not Australia. YellowMonkey (bananabucket) 01:57, 21 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: The Superbowl and AFL Grand Finals are only played in one country yet posted regularly. As is the Canadian football competition Grey Cup which is due in the future. An example of an a former player for the losing side in this game, Seán Óg Ó hAilpín, was born in Fiji. He won and was runner-up on several occasions in Gaelic games competitions (see templates at the bottom of his page). His brother, another player for the same team, was born in Australia and as such went from Australia to Gaelic games before he spent time playing in the AFL as well. Elsewhere, a professional association footballer also recently walked out on a career in England to play Gaelic football. Oh and now this final is being reported in The Sydney Morning Herald. Ireland also beat Australia in competitive internationals between the sports. --candle•wicke02:58, 21 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, well English County Cricket results are also in teh newspaper, while I would object to AFL. I'm not a fan of NFL either but at least a few non Americans have moved there to try playing it (more than AFL) YellowMonkey (bananabucket) 03:10, 21 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The AFL is listed at ITNR too. Cricket is played at a much wider level and is already represented anyway so where does it come into this? Even so, do the English County Cricket results feature in Australian newspapers? --candle•wicke03:56, 21 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Now that we have Eurobasket on ITN, I think one sport item is enough at the moment. And F1, actually. If there were no other sport items, I would consider it but not now. --Tone17:35, 21 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The German government raises its terrorism alert level after al Qaeda posted a video on the Internet threatening attacks in Germany based on the outcome of this month's elections. (CNN)
Nigeria's government asks cinemas to stop showing the science fiction film, District 9, saying it denigrates the country's image by portraying Nigerians as cannibals, criminals and prostitutes. (BBC)
I certainly think this is a worthy issue. But it needs an article. Perhaps I'm not finding it. I've searched 'kenya drought' and not found anything.--Johnsemlak (talk) 09:20, 20 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Poland
See article (seems to be usual standard—2 days of mourning, investigation, events cancelled, policians commenting, etc) At least 13 miners are killed and at least 30 others are hospitalised following a mine blast in Ruda Śląska, Poland, the country's deadliest since 2006. --candle•wicke19:18, 19 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
UruguayanPresidentTabaré Vázquez calls for an integrated Mercosur with a greater number of countries to make it more competitive overseas, but also demands greater balance inside the group among members. (MercoPress)
Michel Bagaragaza, former head of Rwanda's tea industry, pleads guilty to complicity in the 1994 genocide, altering his original not guilty plea. (BBC)
Strong oppose. And no national significance. I live in the US and I don't know of anyone who watches this show. Most Americans have never heard of it. In addition, ITN strives to be British-centric, not US-centric, so for that reason strong oppose. Nutmegger (talk) 18:27, 18 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I think this might be ITNable. The article says that it was the "longest running broadcast program of any kind, across both radio and then television media, in history" so I think it has enough significance there - Dumelow (talk) 12:06, 18 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Question: For comparative purposes (i.e. for those in the US where this originates), the potential demise of another "world's longest-running" type show elsewhere might have a chance of being posted if nominated too? Examples, The Archers in the UK, The Late Late Show in Ireland... (can't think of or find examples in other countries and even then those two are younger than this but just wondering anyway). --candle•wicke13:37, 18 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Found some more "longest running" using the source in for same in Guiding Light. Longest-running TV cookery show seems to be Hasta La Cocina (Mexico), longest-running TV variety show seems to be Sábado Gigante, etc. By the way, that source for Guiding Light says "world's longest running TV drama... originally broadcast as a 15 min radio serial". Does that verify the claim: "longest running drama in television and radio history"? It seems to me to just say it was on radio before it became the longest-running TV drama so maybe that needs to be clarified. Also, where is the source for "longest-running soap opera in production"—and does this actually partially or fully contradict the claim in The Archers article? --candle•wicke13:50, 18 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I believe that we could, at the very absolute least, state that Guiding Light is the world's longest-running English-language TV soap opera, whether you measure in terms of number of episodes or consecutive years of broadcast. Archers is longer, but is a radio show. There do not seem to be any other soap operas still in production that began before 1952, so even if you exclude the radio episodes, Guiding still "wins". I say English-language to be safe, but unless there is a show native to Mexico or some country that just isn't showing up on my search results, Guiding Light would actually be the longest-running TV soap opera in the world as well. -- SoapTalk/Contributions14:12, 18 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
This is more or less similar situation as a death. what we should determine is whether people will be interested in knowing about GLs long run. i think 72 years is quite a bit so ill give it a support. -- Ashish-g5514:36, 18 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
For me the issue is whether claims about longest this or longest that can be verified. If this is the longest running English language programme on either Tele or radio then it's certainly notable and should go up. However, if its only claim is to be the longest running soap opera, then you leave yourself open to people wanting to put up the longest running radio show, longest running cookery show, longest running sitcom etc. --Daviessimo (talk) 17:36, 18 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
well there are a few things that started with GL. such as hockey night in canada. but considering this also ran as radio show before that im pretty sure it will easily qualify as longest ever drama/soap/non-sports show. i would support Hockey night too if it were to be cancelled which will prolly not happen for a long time. and @Nutmegger you not knowing anyone that watches the show isnt a great argument since the show has gathered 72 years worth of viewers. -- Ashish-g5519:02, 18 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
But surely that is what makes it notable? If for example, you take List of longest running TV shows by category as a base (yes I know its unreferenced!), how do you distinguish between what is notable and what is not notable? The only measure of notability in this instance has to be if the show is a longest running programme. In this instance it is a 'longest runner' in the soap category, but this record is based on its TV appearances, which started in 1952. There are a couple of other programmes in that list which also started in 1952 and several more that started within a couple of years. Are we going to list all of those programmes as well, if and when they end --Daviessimo (talk) 19:59, 18 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
the only thing as i said making this more notable is the radio run it had before the tv run making it the longest except hockey night in canada (as far as i can tell). and if we were to limit it to just 2 shows then this can be posted. -- Ashish-g5520:05, 18 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'd just like to say: holy shit. That is a lot of episodes. I would give this a support if other people agree with it. If there is any tv show that deserves a mention on itn, it'd be this one. --PlasmaTwa221:40, 18 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Whether or not we can verify Guiding Light as 'longest running' in any way, 72 years is an incredibly long run and puts it in very limited company. It airs in a lot of countries. Soap operas do well in a demographic that probably doesn't post in WP much, I'd guess. In Russia American (and Latin American) soaps do very well amongst grannies and the like. I would imagine this show is more notable than many of us realize. Support--Johnsemlak (talk) 02:52, 19 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
(un-indent)The BBC seem to verify that it is the longest running soap in history and with over 15000 episodes it probably is very near the longest running show ever. For that reason I'm switching my vote to support. However, I would point out that unless you want people to come in and criticise this going up, the fact that it is the longest running soap in history will need to be included in the blurb --Daviessimo (talk) 07:50, 19 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Although I had misgivings about this one it seems to have strong support, so I'm planning to post soon. Would the following blurb be acceptable? — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 10:09, 19 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The 15,762nd and final episode of Guiding Light, a 72-year long soap opera, airs on the American television network CBS.
Just to point out, I still think you need to mention that it is the longest running soap ever. Its only been a couple of hours and already someone has suggested it lacks notably (see talk:Main Page) --Daviessimo (talk) 15:37, 19 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The USA has scrapped a controversial missile defence system which would have been based in Poland and the Czech Republic. Article seems to be at US missile defense complex in Poland. Not sure if this is notable enough but it has received a fair bit of coverage in the UK at least - Dumelow (talk) 10:40, 18 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Don't think this (if at all successful) should be posted without mentioning Russia also abolishing its similar plan. Odd how this has been overlooked by the US media but they have other things to be getting on with I suppose—fear mongering and that pesky "Obama agenda", etc... and in the UK, The Daily Telegraph wants to know where Hillary Clinton got to throughout the "great surrender" and The Guardian has some conspiracy theories of its own. Indeed, the BBC are uncharacteristically slow with this "breaking news" stub from several hours ago as well... :-o Moscow thinks Poland is "upset" though so I wonder how this will turn out... all a very interesting read but where exactly is the ITN? Perhaps if Donald Tusk has actually defected but I see no evidence of this at the moment... --candle•wicke14:13, 18 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm... tend to agree with candlewicke. They cancelled the development of a defence system that they planned to implement (i.e. nothing had actually happened so their change of mind changes... well nothing). I mean its not like them changing their mind about going to war, it was just some planned missile sites --Daviessimo (talk) 17:31, 18 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Support if we have suitable articles to link it to. (note that the linked article above has had it's neutrality disputed). This event had international interest and significance. It is a major shift in US policy which is having an effect on many other countries. The ramifications of this in international affairs are immense.--Johnsemlak (talk) 03:07, 19 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Following the Gordon Brown apology, does anyone think this is important? A formal apology has been accepted for an incident at an event involving fifty countries in which "the Argentine delegation walked out ... and following on the Argentine protest the organizers of the conference withdrew the Falklands flag and stand from the adjoining show". Article would be Argentina–Spain relations I think. --candle•wicke09:03, 17 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Argentina formally accepts apologies from the Spanish government which admitted having committed a “protocol error” on allowing the presence of a delegation from the Falkland Islands in an international fisheries sustainability conference. (MercoPress)
The European Union casts doubt on last month's election results showing Afghan President Hamid Karzai winning the presidential election outright in the first round. (Reuters)
Egyptian border guards shoot dead two sub-Saharan migrants, bringing to at least 14 the number killed this year as they try to cross illegally into Israel. (IOL)
A lightning bolt kills five children at their school in Bamali, Cameroon, as they are preparing to begin their school day. (IOL)
I would normally agree with you, but Japan is a world power, second economically only to the United States. Barack Obama's inauguration was covered extensively on ITN, as was his election. I do realize Obama's notability trumps that of Hatoyama, but it would be certainly a double standard here if Hatoyama is somehow less deserving of coverage. Colipon+(Talk) 13:41, 16 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with you regarding the double standard - I'm all for maintaining equality in the way we select ITN items - however, I'm not sure what would be achieved by putting this up. If you put this up then people are going to ask, if Japan why not China? If China why not Germary? If Germany why not France? If France why not the UK? I mean where do you draw the line? The only thing you can say is that regarding Barack Obama, his election was more notable because he was the first non-white US president in a majority white country --Daviessimo (talk) 14:17, 16 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict):::Yeah I know we are biased to the USA (we had Obama's inaugeration, election, selection of vice-president, even when there was guy arrested for fraud over his old senate seat and there was a lot of support to get one of his speeches posted) but every time something related to the US occurs a whole load of people come over and argue why it should go up (a lot of the time it gets posted) and ITN gets branded as being biased against the US. Strange that this many people don't turn up when any other countries vice-presidential candidates get nominated or even when an ex-PM of Israel is arrested (which happened recently and probably rightly didn't get posted - we normally wait for a verdict). It is pretty annoying but unfortunately that's the way it is. Either we shoukd cover all these events no matter where they occur (which would result in ITN becoming even more about politics) or we cover none at all. Sorry I turned this into something of a rant - Dumelow (talk) 14:20, 16 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Fair enough. I am not going to push it unless there is some semblance of support. Wikipedias in a few other languages have posted this story though. Colipon+(Talk) 14:39, 16 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
i agree that two wrongs arent really going to make a right. but as Dumelow said in similar cases for US situations we get a lot more people wanting to put it up and wikipedia becomes more of a democracy which its not supposed to be. posting this will only makes things more complicated as people will complain about other countries. -- Ashish-g5515:13, 16 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Support Swearing in of the head of government of a great power. In response to Daviessimo, why not draw the line at the great powers; there are only seven. It stops at the U.K. --PlasmaTwa218:31, 16 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
then what about Canada and Italy which are in G8... or India... i highly doubt its going to work out that well. i agree it should not be just USA but as i said above the reason for adding that has more to do with how many people want it up unfortunately... -- Ashish-g5514:57, 17 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
There is a big difference between the international influence and power of Canada/Italy and, say, France or Germany. India was the only country I thought about as an exception to the rule, due to it being the world's largest democracy, but it lacks the economic power of Germany and Japan. --PlasmaTwa223:08, 17 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Speaking from a purely academic point of view, only seven countries can be considered great powers. They are, alphabetically, Britain, China, France, Germany, Japan, Russia, and the United States. No other country cannot be considered a great power due to various institutional and balance of power equations.
So we are considering a situation whereby the PM of Indonesia who represents more than 200 million people or the PM of India who represents more than 1.1 billion will not be posted when they are sworn in but the PM of the UK who represents about 60 million will be? I can't see why we should post some and not others based on a ranking by economic power. We will surely just open it up to people who come here and try to explain why x country should be posted because y country has. The situation as it stands seems fine to me (we already cover them once when elected anyway) - Dumelow (talk) 10:05, 18 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with Dumelow. ITN already gets enough stick for having loads and loads of political items and we don't realistically want to add anymore unnecessary items. I would rather we just didn't post the US swearing in ceremony instead, which would solve the problem. --Daviessimo (talk) 17:40, 18 September 2009 (UTC)'[reply]
Regarding the comparison between Obama and Hatoyama, one thing not getting mentioned here is that Obama is far more notable than most heads of state not simply because he is from the US but because he has a unique ethnic background. He's the first black head of state of a nation with a majority population of White European descent. That's why his officially becoming head of state of said country generated so much international significance and interest. Can we really say that about Hatoyama, or most heads of state of recent years (Andrea Merkel may be comparible)? I support that we posted Obama's swearing in, which was one of the major global events of the year, and oppose posting the swearing of Hatoyama. Wikipedia got it right. To add to this point, I would retrospectively support the swearing in of Nelson Mandela if it happened today, and perhaps Margaret Thatcher. (does the UK swear in PMs?) It's perfectly reasonable to say that some heads of state are more notable than others, and not simply because they're from a 'great power'. --Johnsemlak (talk) 05:15, 20 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'd say that this is notable (even if it is an indirect election). This guy will represent almost 500 million people and the EU does control important aspects of the legal and economic systems (amongst others) across Europe - Dumelow (talk) 12:19, 16 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
We report new elected officials even if they are elected by parliament. This is in fact practiced in several countries. So I support. Which article should we highlight, Barosso or EU Comission? --Tone12:56, 16 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I have removed the unsubstantiated claims in the lead about his name meaning "tough guy", and removed the maintenance tag. It seems fairly well sourced, generally. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 09:12, 18 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I just had a quick check through the history and the tag was added over 18 months ago when the article had only one reference. Its certainly been tidied up a lot since then --Daviessimo (talk) 17:43, 18 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, this may seem a bit specialised and it is still an ongoing event, but is huge within F1 and could result in a truly draconian punishment being levied. CrispMuncher (talk) 16:00, 16 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Normal policy is to wait for the verdict to be announced and I think in this case that will be next week (I know its before the Singapore grand prix). In my opinion we should wait (because Wikipedia doesn't do predictions), but if Renault are found guilty (which seems likely) its definitely ITN-worthy. Its one of, if not the most widely followed sports championship in the world --Daviessimo (talk) 08:20, 17 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Kenya begins to clear Africa's largest slum, Kibera, in an operation set to take two to five years. From the [BBC. I think this could be notable enough as it is Africa's largest slum being totally emptied (eventually) of its one million inhabitants- Dumelow (talk) 16:14, 16 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Federal Reserve Chairman Ben S. Bernanke says the worst U.S. recession since the 1930s has likely ended, while warning that growth may not be strong enough to quickly reduce the unemployment rate. (Bloomberg)
EirGrid, Ireland's national electricity grid operator, receives permission from An Bord Pleanála to build a new electricity interconnector between Ireland and Wales. (RTÉ)
Gabonese firefighters battle a blaze at the heart of Libreville as fire consumes the nation's largest market. (IOL)
Im being bold here and sugesting that this gets put up since its made landfall in Mcironesia as a C4 Super Typhoon which is the second most intense rating that the JTWC use.Jason Rees (talk) 10:34, 15 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
With 99.9% of the votes counted, it seems like nothing really exciting will happen. The ruling coalition remains in power with an 86/83 mandate (of 169 parliamentarians), as opposed to 87/82 before. Also, it's not quite precise to say that the people elect a prime minister in a parliamentary system. Lampman (talk) 08:58, 15 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Would ask you to reconsider your stance. Fullfills : The deceased was a very important figure in their field of expertise WP: LILP, and was recognised as such. (acting) The article has at least a paragraph of prose about the person's death (in accordance with ITN updating criteria) and the article is satisfactorily filled out with no major omissions of the person's life and effect and is currently being improved. It is also being covered by numberous news sources including CNN/ MSNBC and other international news organization. Thanks♠B.s.n.♥R.N.contribs07:13, 15 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I sorry, but I'm going to have to oppose too. The LILP is itself horribly biased - I mean one quick glance suggests there are very few (if any at all) actors and actresses from the Indian film industry, which is comparable in size to Hollywood, let alone anywhere else in the world (e.g. French or Spanish language cinema). Swayze is not recognised as a leading party in his field (as far as I'm aware he has never won any significant awards) and as such his death, whilst a tradgedy, is not notable enough. However, I would point out that were David Levy's suggested obituaries section created (see below), I think this could go up, but as ITN is now, I don't feel it can. --Daviessimo (talk) 07:55, 15 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose While this is sad news, and all over the media, it is not notable that an actor suffering from cancer has died. Were Swayze to have been a multi-award winning icon of cinema, than yes. But he was not. 80.193.130.5 (talk) 08:18, 15 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
After reading the long debate regarding recent deaths of what should constitute admission to ITN I can see your points. Yes it appears WP: LILP is bais and should not be a sole source of entry. This was just a good faith request that appears to not meet consences. Thanks for your time ♠B.s.n.♥R.N.contribs08:28, 15 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I think the main problem is that his death was forthcoming. It's not like Jackson, which was completely unexpected (Farrah Fawcett, who died the same day, did not get mention). - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲτ¢15:18, 15 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, using Farrah Fawcett as precedent. Note to above, Michael Jackson was the largest selling solo artist of all time...and died entirely unexpectedly. Patrick Swayze's terminal cancer (like that of Farrah's), had been known to the public for quite some time. --Smashvilletalk15:29, 15 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Swayze is not that big of a cinema icon. However, does anyone remember if ITN reported Heath Ledger's death? Would be an interesting comparison, though Ledger was probably a bigger star, and died tragically at the height of his career.--Johnsemlak (talk) 16:38, 15 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
correction. first wildcard. and ya once the match finishes... i will be on wiki ban soon to avoid seeing the score since i will not be watching the match till 2 hours later :( -- Ashish-g5520:09, 14 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
hmm, we seem to be having admin shortage... its been close to 15 hours late now so admins please try and add this one first. thanks -- Ashish-g5518:37, 15 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I make it only about 6 hours late (update is aimed for at least once per 24 hrs) but there is this one and the rugby tri-nations which are ready to go and the Norwegian election will probably be ready soon - Dumelow (talk) 19:18, 15 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I support the tri-nations, however, regarding camogie we have to be realistic that we can't post the female counterpart to every male competition we list. The football went up and there's a strong case for rugby, cricket etc, but the female version of hurling is probably at the other end of the spectrum. --Daviessimo (talk) 19:58, 13 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Support Tri Nations, but I don't think it has ended. The article doesn't make it clear, but it seems the Springboks won with a match to spare. Agree with Daviessimo on camogie. ... (talk) 06:51, 14 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
There is one match left to play but the Springboks have played all their matches. One match a week is played and each team plays the other three times, the South Africans have won all but one of their matches and so won the series with neither NZ/Australia (the last match) being able to win. So whilst the competition is still running the South Africans have already won it - Dumelow (talk) 19:52, 14 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Norman Borlaug, who is seen as the father of the Green Revolution, died yesterday. This man was a noble laureate, holder of the Presidential Medal of Freedom and the Congressional Gold Medal and is estimated to have saved 245 million lives through his agricultural innovation. His article is fiarly decent too - Dumelow (talk) 10:28, 13 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
No-one had suggested a tagline yet anyway, but your's seems good enough. Perhaps worth mentioning that he was an agronomist. "dies saturday" doesn't sound right to me, could we not just say "dies of cancer at the age of 95"? - Dumelow (talk) 16:58, 13 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
As noted above, the Death section contains two sentences (which easily could be consolidated into one), conveying only the most basic information (age and time/location/cause of death). This is not a sufficient article update, so I've removed the item. —David Levy11:05, 14 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
To qualify for inclusion in ITN, a death's impact (e.g. ramifications, comments by notable persons, memorial events, et cetera) should be addressed. (There are other types of information that obviously don't apply in this instance.)
If this is not feasible, the article simply doesn't qualify for ITN (the purpose of which is to link to articles that have been substantially updated to reflect current/recent events, not to report the news). —David Levy11:30, 14 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
If we could use common sense instead of always needing rules to tell us what we can do, the article would qualify with a mile. Borlaug was an extremely influential person, and as media around the world break the news on his death, many people will want to read and learn more about him and what he did in his lifetime. We, as an encyclopedia, really are the one site that should be giving everyone that info. No, his death is not very surprising or full of ramifications, but it has brought his extraordinary life into the news. And we happen to have an excellent article about it. Lets make everyone aware of that by linking to it from the main page! Finally, the ITN-section is simply better with this fresh item included instead of that 4 day old Gordon Brown/Turing thing. I find that very obvious. This should be the decisive factor, not if we are pushing some rule or guideline. Shanes (talk) 12:31, 14 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The Turing item is gone now. I tend to agree with David Levy that if the death section cannot be expanded beyond a couple of sentences, the article does not qualify for ITN. --BorgQueen (talk) 13:10, 14 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
What you suggest is reasonable, but so is the status quo. Neither rises to the level of common sense.
You'll never see me attempt to justify something with the rationale "because the rules say so." But the rules reflect consensus and are based on practices that generally work well, so it usually makes sense to follow them unless an exceptional circumstance dictates otherwise. This is not such a circumstance. It's a typical instance in which the objection stems from disagreement with the rules themselves.
As I've done in the past, I suggest that you seek consensus to modify the rules. Until such consensus is demonstrated, there's no valid reason for your opinion or mine to override the standards agreed upon by the community.
A major concern is that readers expect to find substantial updates directly pertaining to the blurbs. Last year, I proposed that we create a subsection specifically for deaths of individuals meeting our normal inclusion criteria other than the article update criterion (with clear emphasis on reading about their lives). Does that strike you as a suitable solution? —David Levy15:22, 14 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It's sad to see WP:ITN is ignoring the death of such a big personality. Heads of state are paying tribute India to this legend but WP is simply putting it aside. Really sad. David - would you bother to put the news back on ITN - please? --GPPande15:53, 14 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Have you considered expanding the Death section with a reference to Manmohan Singh's remarks? That would be a step in the right direction. —David Levy16:32, 14 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think readers always expect to find substantial updates. If a great man dies newspapers and the media in general will normally write and speak extensively about his life and what he did when he was alive. The death in it self is just a trigger for that. Wikipedia, not even being a newspaper, shouldn't need to offer more than just his bio. The life of Norman Borlaug is in the news now. And we have an excellent article on it that we should highlight and give our readers a pointer to from the ITN-section on the main page.
But of course there'll be border cases. I don't think this is one of them, but in general what about adapting a rule that if someone has an article in more than 30 wikipedia language versions, that person is seen as notable enough to warrant mentioning of his death on ITN. Wikipedia:Recent years has in its guideline that a bio needs to have articles in at least 10 languages for that person to be linked to from the death section in a year-article. If we up that to 30 for ITN I don't expect this to make ITN into an obituary-section, and we'll have an easy to follow rule about this issue that seems to come up so often. Shanes (talk) 17:15, 14 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Cases like this, where an article can't be or just isn't updated (as is often the case with recent deaths) is a reason why I think we should have adopted David's subsection proposal (anyone fancy reopening that debate?). It cuts out all of the disagreements where we have to explain why a significant death is not featured in ITN and directs users to the article which will hopefully be updated. As it stands until the article has more than "he died of x on y" we can't feature it in ITN which in many cases (such as this) is not the best solution - Dumelow (talk) 16:09, 14 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
if its an old person most of the time thats all the updates that can be made. but he definitely seems significant enough given the international interest. i dont wanna bring Ted kennedy up again but the article updates were never discussed as a factor. in that case all that mattered was international response. if we had 100s of people here wanting to put this up would this go up regardless of updates? if yes, then it should go up. Perhaps updates will be made after it gets to main page as more people will start visiting it. i think death is not a normal criteria where updates should be necessary since the point of posting maybe to feature the person's life rather than death (hence entire article). -- Ashish-g5516:19, 14 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The fact that the Ted Kennedy article was substantially updated absolutely was a major factor (and was addressed). That element generated relatively little discussion because it was undisputed. —David Levy16:32, 14 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
at the time there werent too much details but my point isnt that. its that if 100s were supporting it would it go up regardless of updates. but either way i think the person's life should be featured on main page since that is how we determine whether they should even go up in the first place. the couple of lines in death section is not what gets read to be honest in death situations (i dont have proof of that but i think thats common sense). -- Ashish-g5520:14, 14 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'm in favor of reviving the discussion, of course. I believe that such a setup would enable us to direct readers to articles about the lives of recently deceased persons (thereby satisfying the segment of the community that advocates this), without misleading them to expect the sort of update currently required (thereby addressing a key concern of those who have opposed the inclusion of obituaries). —David Levy16:32, 14 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Do the majority of WP readers expect substantial article updates when reading articles linked in the ITN section? I find that hard to believe, though there may be a vocal minority that does believe that. This seems to me to be an extremely notable death--I would have thought the death of a Nobel laureate could be a sort of 'automatic'. While posting it may technically violate ITN rules, I think common sense should prevail. Having the article linked on the front page of WP enables WP readers to conveniently access information about his life at a time when many people are interested in doing so. --Johnsemlak (talk) 19:33, 14 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I think DYK has the criteria that article should have been expanded 5x in past 5 days to be showcased on main page. Why are you guys applying that rule to ITN? Death section exists - article doesn't show him alive yet. Isn't that enough? --GPPande14:45, 15 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Eight people are swept away by flash floods and a ninth is killed by lightning as more thunderstorms lash southwestern Algeria. Five people are killed in storms in Morocco. (IOL)
At least 11 people die following two days of riots in Kampala, Uganda. (IOL)
At least 7 die in several separate attacks and suicide bombings in Russia's North Caucasus. (AP)
At least three people die and several others are injured in Somaliland when angry demonstrators clash with riot police. (IOL)
10 Warhol paintings dating from the late 1970s are stolen from the private collection of Richard Weisman in Los Angeles, USA. (BBC)(RTÉ)
This bird "one of the rarest of all bird species" has been photographed in its natural environment for the first time. From the BBC. Notable enough? - Dumelow (talk) 12:57, 12 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The search and rescue effort following the 2009 Sierra Leone shipwreck comes to end, with 90 confirmed dead and at least 100 others declared missing. (Reuters)
The former Taiwanese president and his wife are given life sentences for corruption (involving taking $15 million in bribes, kickbacks and embezzlement) whilst Mr Chen was in office. Chen was found guilty of six charges and his wife on seven (she had also already been jailed for perjury). They were also fined $15 million. Seems like a pretty big case to me (and we can surely feature this now that it has gone through court) - Dumelow (talk) 10:59, 11 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Someone please include "Taiwan" somewhere in that story. Not everyone who reads wiki knows that Taiwan's official name is the "Republic of China" and may get confused. Colipon+(Talk) 19:49, 11 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree. "Taiwan" is the common name for the ROC. Just as "South Korea" is the common name for the ROK. When Kim Dae-Jong died, we said that he was the "South Korean president", we did not say he was the "President of the Republic of Korea". But here, to maintain political NPOV, we say that he is the president of the country commonly known as both ROC and "Taiwan". Note usage on the official website. Colipon+(Talk) 20:03, 11 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
This man, described as a "one of the highest ranking Taliban officials in Pakistan" has been arrested by the Pakistani military. He was "a key spokesman for the Taliban in the Swat valley as well as one of the most senior militant commanders in the region". It has been described as "a significant milestone for the army's operation there". He was arrested alongside another senior commander and three other militants. From the BBC. Seems fairly notable to me, the article needs some work though - Dumelow (talk) 10:52, 11 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Dubai's Metro System, the first mass transit system of the Arabian Peninsula, officially opens to the public as its first metro line is partially operational. (Al Bawaba)
Greek militant group Revolutionary Struggle threatens to attack the "golden boys" it blames for the economic crisis as it claims responsibility for the Athens stock market bombing. (RTÉ)
Can we use a bit more discretion please? I'm glad you're a frequent contributor to this page, but it would be nice if you at least waited until you could point to a relevant, updated page (since that is, after all, what's important). And until something was on Portal:Current events. -- tariqabjotu21:27, 10 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I would have to agree with Tariqabjotu. You have made seven nominations for news items in the course of 24 minutes, but none of them are likely to proceed without articles (they also don't seem as notable as the other items that were proposed today). Perhaps it would be better to choose just one or two items and focus on getting those posted. Dwr12 (talk) 22:17, 10 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not really sure how to respond to that. I make nominations like any other and hope that there will be a discussion. I have often done this and yet occasionally I am told I am incorrect. My reasons for nominating those were that, having quickly looked through the African section of the BBC website and having a limited time online in which to nominate (I have not been online since and was hoping for some progress), I saw several events which I thought were going unnoticed and which I believed it would be appropriate to at least nominate. I know they will not be posted without following all procedures but again this is done if they are approved (and I usually tidy up my own nominations anyway). Unfortunately, ITNs are always being posted without updating the portal or the talk page or the timer but I try to do my best to ensure all this is done even when others forget. I disagree entirely with the sentence "they also don't seem as notable as the other items that were proposed today"—221 people going missing, for example, isn't notable enough to put forward for a discussion here? I knew something had to have happened in Africa this week but I think it is worrying to discourage anyone from even nominating an event like that or to say that there can be too many nominations. It takes days to get some of them ready for the Main Page. Can you please comment on this nomination? --candle•wicke13:44, 11 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Well, the main point I wanted to make is that I don't think it is worthwhile to make nominations that don't have a serious chance of getting posted. Not all seven of your nominations, which still don't seem to have articles, will ever be posted. To me, it seems that you were throwing a bunch of headlines onto ITN/Candidates and hoping that one would stick. I stand by my sentiment on my previous post that we should single out notable events with updated, well-written articles and focus on posting those. Preemptively listing the current set of headlines you read off of the BBC onto this page is probably not going to make the process happen faster or better. Also, my statement about the non-notability of your headlines was meant in general. Most would agree that a banker committing $11 million of illegal trading, some EU officials making a visit to Zimbabwe, and an accident with five people dead aren't significant enough to warrant their own articles or be mentioned in existing articles. As for the "221 people missing" news item, I'd like to see an article for that before I give an opinion on whether that should be posted. Dwr12 (talk) 22:37, 11 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I am still going to disagree with some of that. You seem to be measuring the events by the amount of money or the number of deaths which is not how ITN works. The source for the event which is supposed to be discussed here says it is the largest case of its kind in Hong Kong. This is not directly from the headline (or am I not allowed to include a point from later in the article either?) "$11 million of illegal trading" actually seems quite large to me (perhaps you are looking at this from a limited perspective rather than what is significant where it happens?) The incident in India seems to have attracted some form of international attention. The EU/Zimbabwe has received an oppose now and it may have been a mistake (I am not a robot and may make an error) but I stand by the fact that I nominated it and thought it appropriate to allow a discussion on it. I don't think all nominations are ever posted so I'm not sure what you mean by this. Several of the nominations made by others still also do not have articles so I do not fully understand why my nominating some events is singled out like this. Had I made them all in one edit or had I made one less or had I made them over a longer period of time would it have been different? I am not sure what the problem is. However, I do not think this has anything to do with the HK banker. --candle•wicke23:08, 11 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Weak support for this one. Article looks good. (I've renamed it as it didn't seem big enough to be called a "ship".) — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 14:31, 13 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Hmmm... I am not sure I understand this now when I am about to update it... he is the Prime Minister-elect and resigned this position. I don't know if this changes its importance so I will await further comment. --candle•wicke00:11, 12 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I am not sure... I think it maybe deserves an article even if not for the Main Page. It is the most popular article on the Times of India today and has been given some attention in the media there. It is perhaps easier to dismiss when one is not in India but maybe someone from there knows what sort of coverage it is getting and if there are many sources? Only three people were killed in the Dendermonde nursery attack yet that has an article and was on ITN so an article in this case is not impossible in theory. --candle•wicke23:19, 11 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
This nomination is not going to be successful until that updated article shows up. Rather than justify on ITN/Candidates why it is an important event that deserves an article and ITN appearance, why not be bold and go make it an article? To me, that should be the first step before nominating it. Apart from that, the scale of this accident has the feel of "local news." To put some perspective on it, I'm sure there were a few car crashes today within 100 miles of me in which more than five people died. As far as I can tell, this tragedy is not going to affect the lives of many people outside New Delhi and it will not be remembered internationally once it falls out of the news. Additionally, with no decent articles associated with this event to showcase through ITN, I oppose pursuing this further. Dwr12 (talk) 08:37, 14 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Support also - no reason why women's football shouldn't be represented on ITN. However, as per normal, a referenced prose update on the final is required --Daviessimo (talk) 07:19, 11 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, but as football is the most popular sport on the planet it is normal to include regionalised international competitions. Given that the world cup happens once every four years its not like we are inundated with womens football as it is --Daviessimo (talk) 07:29, 11 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Probably not very important - however, there are over 50 nations who are members of UEFA (by my count that is just short of a quarter of all the recognised sovereign states in the world), including several in Asia (e.g. Azebaijan, Israel, Kazakhstan). I'd say that equals a pretty large amount of international interest --Daviessimo (talk) 16:53, 11 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Many football (soccer) events get posted due to the game's global influence. For ITN, this includes, but is not limited to, World Cup, Euro, Copa America, Asian Cup, African Cup of Nations, Gold Cup, Women's World Cup, U-21 World Championships, UEFA Champions League etc. etc. The women's Euro is actually followed quite extensively, albeit lagging much behind men's ratings, it has gained increased popularity in Germany, and is much, much further ahead of Hurling... something we still deemed useful to put in ITN. Colipon+(Talk) 20:53, 11 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I hope this was nominated and posted for more reasons than hurling. They are different sports and remember hurling is broadcast in some form in Australia and bars, clubs and restaurants in Canada, Caribbean and US can apparently watch it so I am not sure it is a fair assessment. Please remember that some parts of the world are interested in different sports than others. --candle•wicke23:27, 11 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
One of Britain's most wanted fugitives arrested in the Netherlands
British diplomat John Terry has been allegedly murdered in Jamaica. [15]: John Terry, who was also a justice of the peace, had been beaten and his throat was tied with cord and a piece of clothing. Nothing much is known yet, but perhaps we should keep an eye on it. --BorgQueen (talk) 18:02, 10 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I was about to post the image as well, but it has two problems: 1. The image is not found in the given source. (When I click the source link I get "You requested a non-existent page. Please check the URL.") 2. If the image is a creation of JAXA, it may not be in public domain, even if it can be found in the NASA website. --BorgQueen (talk) 18:22, 10 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose: will we also report the 21st, 22nd, 23rd, 24th etc nation to come to this decision, and every comparable legislative change. Not a first, even at continental level. Kevin McE (talk) 11:44, 10 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Well according to the news article it is the first Latin American country to pass the law, which by my reckoning makes it 'a first... at continent level'. Also, given that South America is made up of predominantly Catholic countries it is likely to cause quite a controversy in the region. And anyway, ITN generally puts up any significant changes in the laws of countries, whether it be legalising gay adoption or changing the side of the road that traffic drives on --Daviessimo (talk) 12:12, 10 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Support, "the law makes Uruguay the first Latin American country to let gay couples adopt" should be more than good enough for ITN. Reported on a European news website too (which I find rare enough for South American events). Plus there was this less than two weeks ago so let us not make one rule for Uruguay and another one for the United Kingdom. --candle•wicke19:25, 10 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Can we clarify whether it is or is not the first Latin American country to let gay couples adopt, as there seems to be confusion about this. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 11:03, 11 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The quote from the source claims that it is. I don't see where the confusion is—there is uncertainty over whether it is the first country with a Catholic majority but I don't think this affects the Latin America side of the argument. --candle•wicke13:52, 11 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
If we feature a mere UK government apology concerning the treatement of Alan Turing why shouldn't we mention a major legislative breakthrough in Uruguay?
Seems to have finished calmly (according to the BBC). Support once article is updated with this fact (ifthis is indeed the case) and the two articles are merged - Dumelow (talk) 20:45, 9 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It landed where it's supposed to, and not very late either. No victims, no weapons fired. In short, not sure it's significant enough. ... (talk) 07:11, 10 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
A storm, with rain, hail and winds of over 60 mph kills at least 14 people in northern Argentina and southern Brazil. (BBC)
ITN candidates for September 8
Norwegian men sentenced to death in Congo
Does anyone think this is significant enough? Reported by BBC [16], CNN [17] and many others, the sentencing does have international implications, and a serious one at that since they are being accused of spying for the Norwegian government as well. --BorgQueen (talk) 15:28, 8 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
This seems like a good candidate, how often are people found guilty of espionage (although they seem unlikely spies to me)? I note Joshua French already has an article, I wonder if Tjostolv Moland is noteable enough for one as well? Would be nice to have one for both men as there doesn't seem to be one for the trial - Dumelow (talk) 15:46, 8 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Would it be better to wait until they die? X are executed is more final than X are sentenced to death (especially if it could be appealed or there was any hope of them getting away). If their sentencing has attracted this much attention then surely their deaths will too? This seems unusual in that it is about a death sentence rather than the jail sentences which are usually posted so perhaps it should be handled with care in case it leads to dozens of death sentence nominations? That would give time for the article to be created as well. --candle•wicke17:29, 8 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
But for trials, a verdict has always been good enough for us, no? As for the hypothetical flood of death sentence nominations, if they are as notable as this one I don't see why we should fear. --BorgQueen (talk) 17:47, 8 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
In addition, we might have to wait for years until the executions are carried out. In that case, I see no problem in featuring the item again. --BorgQueen (talk) 18:42, 8 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know too much about it but from what I've seen I would think their liberation would be as notable as the verdict. Is there any indication of when they are to die? --candle•wicke19:00, 8 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Not that I know of, but according to a CNN report Congo has not carried out the death penalty in 10 years and "lawmakers in parliament are in the process of trying to take the law off the books", and the Norwegian Ministry of Foreign Affairs said that if the pair were to receive the death penalty, Norwegian authorities would "immediately try to seek assurances from Congolese authorities that the death sentence would not be carried out", meaning the process probably is not going to be swift. --BorgQueen (talk) 19:20, 8 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I have a little gripe ;) The link provided is about the two men primarily. So in order to make it clear, it would be better as: — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 20:40, 8 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The semi-autonomous state of Puntland in Somalia has detained three Seychellois hostages (formerly held by pirates) along with the five aircrew and two mediators (one British, one Kenyan) who came to rescue them (and repatriate 23 suspected Somali pirates). The repatriated pirates were themselves met by armed men who disappeared with them into the bush. The men on the aircraft will be charged with illegally bringing the pirates into Puntland. From the BBC). Could be an interesting story for ITn depending on how it develops - Dumelow (talk) 09:36, 8 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Sudanese activist Lubna al-Hussein is found guilty of breaching Sudanese criminal law by wearing trousers, but is fined instead of being sentenced to flogging due to international concern over the trial. She has stated she will not pay and instead face a month in jail. (BBC News)(AP)
Neutral until we get more reports; the news articles we have at present have no official indication of casualties or injured. It might be a while before we have more numbers, from the sounds of it. Tony Fox(arf!)05:23, 8 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
This is as good as any recurring item for the individual sport of hurling which does not have an international championship thus this is the highest level it can achieve. If it was included it would be similar to the Superbowl or AFL Grand Finals as a version of a national championship (although unlike those two versions of football this is a sport in its own right and has been around for longer than both of them).
Hurling is regarded by The New York Times as the "the fastest field game in the world" which "dates from Celtic times". How many ancient sports still popular today feature on ITN? To gain further understanding of how internationally involved the GAA President is, please read this (featuring Asia, Australia, Middle East the US, even the Mayor of New York). It's not something you would might find on CNN (or would you?) but hopefully that won't put anybody off. :-) I think I have updated it appropriately but there are plenty of other sources available anyway if this isn't the case.
The sport is covered in great depth if the right media sources are sought and some even dedicate their own sections within their sports section 1, 2, 3, 4 for more reading from today's newspapers. One former hurler is Jack Lynch - a Taoiseach (i.e. Prime Minister to everybody else) and former Premier League footballer Niall Quinn attended the game according to this (two random examples I've just located of well-known figures connected to hurling in different ways).
Done. Are there any other formalities? I'm not judging it on its article views, I nominated it based upon the sources I provided. I don't think it would be the first time an ITN (and even a sports ITN) would be posted despite a lack of page views on Wikipedia. It is the highest level of its sport and I've provided international sources. --candle•wicke14:50, 8 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Support. But I've always disliked the format "In (topic), XXX". It would be better if there was a more natural way to link to hurling, but not a big deal. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 15:06, 8 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I usually find that the "In (topic), XXX" format ends up occurring anyway (it happened when badminton was on the Main Page) so I left it as that just in case... any other comments? --candle•wicke17:32, 8 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, I've had a rethink. I'm not convinced about the international importance of this event as it is only about Ireland. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 17:52, 8 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I think the issue here is that if we have the AFL Grand Final, the Grey Cup, the Superbowl and World Series, why not this. After all, just like they are, this is the top level of the sport internationally. Ireland may only be a small country, but it has one of the largest expat communities of any nation and I'm sure there will be followers around the globe. I'm personally of the opinion that rather than not putting up small events because there not as big as other sports, we should put up more events from the big sports like Football, basketball or cricket and at the same time provide a platform for smaller, lesser known sports to be seen by more people --Daviessimo (talk) 18:03, 8 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, and one of the points I made was that this is a unique sport in its own right as opposed to a type of football that the Superbowl, for example, is. It does have followers around the globe, however, I decided to use verifiable sources to argue this case rather than mention radio interviews I heard before it took place with people in other parts of the world, which I unfortunately cannot verify. I am hoping that what I have verified, particularly The New York Times (across an ocean to the west) and The National (across an entire continent to the east) provide enough evidence of so-called internationalness. It is really a matter of how the sources are used rather than if it is the top story on CNN or BBC for me. If it is being mentioned in the UAE to the point where it features in the country's newspapers and is sponsored by their national airline then someone somewhere in that country must have heard of it I imagine. I've just found this too if it helps. --candle•wicke18:46, 8 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'd rather see the basketball item below get posted. The competitors are more... exotic, plus basketball is terribly underrepresented here. –HowardtheDuck03:02, 9 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
At least basketball is represented... I am going to raise this on the talk page as I feel we must be consistent when it comes to sports such as these (that is those that aren't world championships). When the Superbowl comes around again it will be posted possibly even without a nomination despite it not even being a unique sport (if one classifies all the footballs as one type of sport). This one has been rejected so far for reasons including not enough page views or "it is only Ireland". Those are fair enough reasons (although I'm inclined to disagree with them) and everyone is entitled to their opinion. I don't understand the point about the competitors being more exotic in basketball (what does this even mean, who measures how exotic they are?) However, if this can be rejected because it is only one country then so too can the Superbowl, AFL, etc. as well in my opinion. It doesn't say much for the inclusion of sports played in other countries either which is unfortunate as I thought that was a good idea and was excited at the sort of sports people would nominate. Perhaps I misunderstood that or neglected to read the bit which said a country had to be of a certain importance or have a minimum number of people to be accepted. --candle•wicke10:40, 9 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Note that it is an international competition: one UK team was in the quarter finals, and teams from England and USA have the possibility of promotion to the level that would give them entry to the tournament. Kevin McE (talk) 11:14, 9 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'm staying neutral, but we seem to have Daviessimo, tripledot and Kevin supporting (plus the persistent nominator :) So I'm considering posting soon, unless strong objections come up. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 11:36, 9 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The thing with the Super_Bowl and the AFL is that they are broadcast elsewhere. Sure maybe this one is too, but not to the extent as those two. –HowardtheDuck12:15, 9 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps Johnsemlak at WT:ITNR said it best, and he is referring to the different football continental club championships, which can also be applied in this context: "Is there a rule or Wikipedia guideline that we must strive for geographical balance even when two events are of vastly unequal importance? Including the club championships of all continents seems painfully unnecessary." –HowardtheDuck12:34, 9 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Three men have been found guilty of conspiring to blow up seven trans-Atlantic aeroplanes using liquid explosives - [18]. Its a pretty big story and has plenty of international interest due to the whole war on terror. Thoughts?
Support I'll update the lead, and I think this event is enough of "a story of international importance or interest" (from criteria). At the least, the story is as significant as that of Abdelkader Belliraj's conviction when that was featured on ITN. By the way, I was Otumba; I changed my username. HonouraryMix (talk) 00:39, 8 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Support - I like this blurb, it's succinct and to the point. This affected the way that people are processed in airports throughout a lot of the world, definitely worth a mention. Tony Fox(arf!)05:26, 8 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
This article needs a lot of fix in it's current shape, few very important policies are being violated. WP:Avoid, WP:NPOV and other such things. There are too many [citation needed] tags. It need to be fixed. --yousaf46518:41, 8 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
To be honest I don't see why the news media are not a reliable secondary sources for science items. If we follow through on that logic we'll never post another science item again because the time btween the initial publication of data and the subsequent discussion in future journal articles is just too long. I also didn't understand how the comparisons provided were in any way similar. They gave two variable that scientists had attempted to link with a theory, which they then sought to prove with evidence. What we were reporting was not a theory, but rather just one set of data by itself (i.e. temps in the Arctic are rising). It wasn't as if we were saying temps in the Arctic are rising, therefore proving that global warming is real --Daviessimo (talk) 13:27, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I kinda agree with daviessimo here. the blurb for Arctic temp said "A study published in the journal...". we were simply saying a study that was published stated this and this... we were not trying to say that we looked (its the news media that did) at various scientific journals and concluded that temp. are rising. similar thing goes for the rat -- Ashish-g5514:30, 8 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Right now five of the seven items are of the "x people die..." format. The other two are new presidents. I think it would be really good to get something else in there; sports, science, entertainment, anything. Lampman (talk) 11:32, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Yes ITN should be from a mix of items. Sometimes there are lot of crash, sometimes a bundle of sinks, or else too many elections are taking place within a small period of time. It's law of attraction or whatever but does happens.--yousaf46502:01, 8 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Samoa driving
Samoa becomes the first territory for 30 years to switch the side of the road which it drives on. From today they will drive on the left-hand side instead of the right-hand side they are currently driving on. From The BBC. The relevent article is Right-_and_left-hand_traffic#Samoa. May or may not be ITN-worthy but it is a first in 30 years - Dumelow (talk) 11:36, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
That article is currently tagged for rewriting (and is basically a copy-paste of the section I added to the other article). Do we have a consensus to add this yet? - Dumelow (talk) 09:03, 8 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
A ferry with 960 people onboard capsizes in the Philippines. 880 people have been rescued, 80 missing and three are confirmed dead. The missing may been rescued by a fleet of fishing vessels so it could turn out to be a good news story. From the BBC. There is a mention in SuperFerry at the moment but it isn't much - Dumelow (talk) 09:53, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see where there's a lot of international interest in this. And unfortunately ferries seem to sink regularly in that part of the world. Lastly, it looks like another boating accident is going up soon...RxS (talk) 15:10, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Support, that is all the more reason to post this now. When have there ever been two boating accidents simultaneously on ITN? Let's do it. 18.96.6.29 (talk) 20:47, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Please agree on a blurb and I can post it. Howard, your insinuations of racism are not helpful to the discussion; please desist, thanks. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 10:09, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I give 3 valid reasons why this shouldn't be posted..someone plays the race card and up it goes? Who says ITN isn't a news service? And a bad one at that. RxS (talk) 14:22, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Might not be competitive this time since the two strongest teams either won't send a team or won't send a full strength team. same is true for Americas tournaments held two years after the Olympics. 119.111.124.130 (talk) 08:31, 10 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
An oil deal and trade concerns with Libya were at one point considered as factors in the Lockerbie bomber's release, British Justice Secretary Jack Straw says in an interview. (CNN)
Details are still very inaccurate, numbers tend to range and there are new reports, we should wait a few hours till it clears up. The current events wording should work as a blurb. Todor→Bozhinov15:42, 5 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Former US soldier Steven D. Green is sentenced to life in prison with no possibility of release for the murder of an Iraqi girl and her family.(Al Jazeera)
I'd have to oppose. Had Word been banned in practice, that might have been notable enough for ITN. However, what we have here is a ruling to ban Word from being sold in the US, a ban which wasn't going to take place until October anyway, now overturned. All the while, Word continued to be sold in the US. Basically, in practice, nothing has changed as a result of the event described in the linked article. Otumba (talk) 02:57, 5 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Oh wait. I misread the article (hit me with a trout, please). The ruling hasn't been overturned, it's just that the ban which was going to be put into effect this October will now be held off to allow the product to be sold whilst an appeal by Microsoft is ongoing. I still oppose, though with less firmness than my last oppose above, because I think in this situation only if the appeal fails and Microsoft Word is banned in actuality (like, literally, pulled off the shelves) would it be notable for ITN. Otumba (talk) 03:14, 5 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Just to be clear, this was never intended to be a nomination. It was moved here from the talk page by Otumba who was trying to be helpful but missed my point which was that I was quite right the last time Word came up in that there was a very good chance Word thing was never going to be a big deal as this latest development has now proven. P.S. Just to be clear, I added the header after it was moved Nil Einne (talk) 04:47, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, I see. My apologies. I hope, though, you can see why I thought it was a nomination, especially since I never followed the original Word debate. Otumba (talk) 11:57, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Nato blows up two of its own petrol tankers after they were hijacked by the Taliban killing 90 people, 56 of which are said to be Taliban militants. (The Times) and (BBC). This looks like ITN material to me, I'll see if there's and article - Dumelow (talk) 09:36, 4 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps I'm being picky, but I think it would read better with an active verb, as in :
"Science publishes a study finding that temperatures in the Arctic were higher over the last ten years than any other similar period in the last 2,000 years." or
"A study in Science finds that temperatures in the Arctic were higher over the last ten years than any other similar period in the last 2,000 years."
The results of Gabon's presidential election were delayed as backers of the main candidates waited outside the offices of the Electoral Commission. (The Sydney Morning Herald)
Greek Prime Minister Costas Karamanlis launches a difficult election campaign after calling an early parliamentary vote for October 4 to seek a new mandate and deal with a sharp economic crisis. (Reuters)
Strong support: Big news in India. As good as a governor of some US state died in air crash. (I hope the second sentence will kill any upcoming opposition as is usually seen). --GPPande13:43, 3 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
You could still link the "helicopter crash" bit on the template. That ought to cause it to be expanded if there is all this interest in it. --candle•wicke14:51, 3 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
In theory a the discovery of a 3700 year old wall is very significant news. That doesn't happen every day. The BBC article does warn however, that this find could be politically motivated (archeology in Israel is always politically motivated). Also there just doesn't seem to be an article update yet. Canaan would be a likely possibility.--Johnsemlak (talk) 06:06, 5 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Politics is hard to get away from there (as anywhere I suppose). But a pretty compelling archaeological find was reported. The rest is spin...so I don't know...politics vs science. It's hard to know which is the dog and which is the tail I guess. Maybe I'll try and update the Canaan article and see what people think. RxS (talk) 15:16, 5 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
To be fair, if it's really a wall that old then it's pretty notable whatever the surrounding politics. According to MSNBC, a small portion of the wall as first found in 1909. The current excavation has uncovered the majority of it. Another source--Johnsemlak (talk) 18:03, 5 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Politics (women and money too in case anyone's more interested in those)
Preferably, yes, but only bolded articles mandate update, I think. Do we have to update all the articles relevant to the topic? No, we don't. --BorgQueen (talk) 20:42, 3 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
British energy company BP says it has drilled one of the deepest wells ever in the oil and gas industry as it made a "giant" discovery in the Gulf of Mexico. (MarketWatch)
Google's Gmail service is hit by an outage affecting the "majority" of its 150 million users. (BBC)
A Chilean judge issues arrest warrants for 129 people for allegedly helping to purge critics of the country's former ruler General Augusto Pinochet. (BBC)(Bernama)
An Iraqi court sentences four security force personnel to death by hanging for their parts in a bank robbery which left eight security guards dead. (BBC)(Press TV)
A Taliban blast kills Afghan deputy chief of intelligence Abdullah Laghmani. The blast shakes the city of Mihtarlam, 60 miles (100 kilometers) east of Kabul in Laghman Province; it kills several government officials and wounds several civilians. (ABC)
Two American journalists held by North Korea for illegal entry admit to crossing the border but claim North Korean guards arrested them on the Chinese side of the border and dragged them back into the country. (Reuters)
It would be an amazing feat if he got elected. However, if he became the first black elected official in Russia, he would be continuing a worldwide-trail of firsts that started before his run and still has a far way to go after the election is over. Besides, he's running for the local county council, which is hardly the presidency. All in all, even if he is somehow able to win, I don't think this is notable enough for ITN. Best of luck to him though. Otumba (talk) 23:51, 2 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Certainly has to wait at least until he is elected. Russia gets a lot of bad press in the international media for its rising racism (I remember some heated debates over whether to mention the racism on the discussion page of the Moscow Wikipedia entry a few years back), so if this person won I think it would be significantly notable. I'm on the fence even in that eventuality but I think it would deserve discussion. It would have similar importance to the article posted on equal birth rights for lesbians, i.e. both would be significant civil rights breakthroughs. --Johnsemlak (talk) 16:22, 3 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
BP making oil discovery
BBC. BP drilled the deepest well ever and discovered 3 billion barrels according to article. In oil terms a "giant" discovery. I am guessing BP could be update in conjunction with Oil Well perhaps. -- Ashish-g5520:11, 2 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Oil well discoveries have a history of being overstated, to boost share prices, prestige etc. In terms of the global reserves this is a drop in the ocean. I oppose. Modest Geniustalk00:11, 4 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"Mr Reddy, 60, was an influential politician from the Congress party." OK, he's dead along with several others. I probably should be careful about implying if he was the younger Indian version of a certain other non-leading, albeit influential politician but he didn't die of cancer or have an expected death. I think I will support this one. The circumstances seem good enough. For population comparisons if necessary to add further weight in favour, I observe that Andhra Pradesh has more than twice as many people as the most popular US state of California. --candle•wicke08:27, 3 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It would also appear there are plenty who are interested in reading about him, judging by the past few hours of 8th, 2nd, 1st, 1st and 1st on the WP:Popular pages chart... plus the most popular story on the BBC website (now a big story on CNN) for those who form their opinion on such stats. --candle•wicke09:36, 3 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
well his page Y. S. Rajasekhara Reddy has been updated decently. shall leave rest upto the 100s who came in to support last week on a fairly similar item if this should go up or not. i support because this is unexpected death -- Ashish-g5513:03, 3 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Now 33 deaths and rising. It was a 7.0 earthquake.BBC. However, I can't find a Wikipedia article on it--er--correction, obviously there's a link at the top of this discussion. However, if I search Wikipedia for 'Java earthquake', it doesn't come up.--Johnsemlak (talk) 17:25, 2 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Done, updated with latest death tolls, I don't really have any more time right now to dedicate to it but hopefully that's enough. Can't believe it hasn't attracted more interest... oh well. At least 63 people are killed and dozens are missing in Java following Indonesia's deadliest earthquake since 2006. --candle•wicke14:29, 4 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Note - There's some definite confusion in the media as to whether the new president's name is spelled Iolu Abil or Iolu Abbil, depending on the source. I used the Radio New Zealand version, which I've found to be pretty reliable in the past. Scanlan (talk) 13:22, 2 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Both article could be expanded a bit but from what I've seen on google, there's not much more info available... Support then. Blurb? --Tone19:04, 2 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Tripoli's streets are decked with thousands of multicolored lights, and hundreds of Gaddafi portraits and placards paying tribute to the leader, with celebrations attended by African, Arab and Latin American leaders but largely ignored by the West. (Al Arabiya)
Gaddafi is hailed as a knight of revolution as celebrations get underway in the country. (The Guardian)
A Sri Lankan journalist is jailed for 20 years on charges of "inciting racial hatred" and "supporting terrorism" for writing articles critical of the government's military operations. (The Independent)
I like it, but I don't think it is ITN material, at least not until the effect is noticed elsewhere. The "Hogmanay effect", for example, is well known in Scottish maternity wards overwhelmed at end-Sept–start-October… Physchim62(talk)12:58, 1 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Looks promising. We had suspension of Honduras from OAS some months ago. When the articles are updated, Support. --Tone14:21, 1 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I would support this one because it marks a beginning of new (era?). It has international impact, big consequences, environmental implications... What would be the blurb in 2012? Now you finally can't buy a light bulb in a shop? Not really... However, I think that the beginning of the process is notable in this regard (meaning we don't include 80W, 60W etc.) --Tone14:21, 1 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
In Europe there is Switzerland and within the EU there is Ireland... I was thinking I had heard this somewhere before. However, as this seems to be the full banning of production across the European Union, I will support either the beginning or end of this. The trouble with the end being that nobody can guarantee that all available bulbs have been bought or at least used (one might turn up in a box somewhere in fifty years and end up in a museum) so I think now, at the beginning, is best. --candle•wicke16:22, 1 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
An international treaty that aims to close fishing ports to vessels involved in illegal, unreported and unregulated (IUU) fishing
unemployment is issue in entire world atm. many countries are actually doing worse. so i dont know if putting this on will seem like eurozone's employment is more important than others. even though that is not the intent but it may seem like that. -- Ashish-g5518:20, 1 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
But you can say that about any news just about anywhere, I don't think that's a good reason to exclude it. It effects millions of people across a continent. ITN items don't have to effect everyone, everywhere. RxS (talk) 04:45, 3 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
That's right...we'd be just as justified in posting unusual unemployment numbers from the U.S. Following Ashish-g55's logic we could never post econimic data from any where in the world that didn't cover everyone, everywhere. I don't think we want to limit ITN like that. And it doesn't end with economics, there are lots of subjects that cover/affect large numbers of people but don't have an overall international impact. We cover those sorts of topics all the time. RxS (talk) 12:23, 3 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
However, the United States is one country of fifty states whereas Europe is one continent of fifty countries... which is more international? Perhaps if the US combined its figures with those of other countries with which it shares that continent... as for countries, similar rates in India would outdo the United States in numbers affected. So I don't know how the Eurozone with several countries more than both those combined could be said to be equally or less international. More or the same amount of people maybe but those would be national figures. --candle•wicke20:47, 3 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
My point was that how international something is doesn't always have to be the guiding principle when choosing ITN items. And indeed, looking at the recent past, much of the time it isn't a factor at all. If it affects a large amount of people it's a valid suggestion whether they live in one political unit or several. RxS (talk) 04:46, 4 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
i think my comment got misunderstood. i said "unemployment is issue in entire world atm". at the moment being the key. news from many countries about unemployment figures comes almost every day. just last week or so Canada said their employment numbers were record low. my point wasnt that this is not international enough but rather that we have not posted the same news which has appeared for other countries so posting this would seem like Eurozone is more importannt. If this was Euro specific right now then i would have no problem. -- Ashish-g5520:57, 3 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
And by that logic, we can't include any economic data from anywhere in the world that's not global in scope and not unique to that part of the world. Or indeed just about anything....China reports suicides are at a 10 year high, we can't add it because suicide is a problem everywhere. Finland says it has the coldest winter on record, nope, because it's been cold everywhere.
My point is that Europe is one of the largest economies in the world and when something like this comes out we should be able to mention it without the rest of the world feeling slighted. RxS (talk) 04:40, 4 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Todays news states US jobless at 26 year high. now had we posted EU 2 days ago what would be the reason for not posting this. none. these are coming out every day as i said. this is the main reason for oppose. its ok to post statistics for someone but u have to see if even worst statistics came out for someone else at same time or not. -- Ashish-g5513:03, 4 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
There'd be plenty of reason not to post it, for starters ITN isn't a business section. But we do post some business news and this would have been a fine addition for the reasons I stated. And since we don't have a crystal ball we can't not post things because something similar might come up in the future. We can use our editorial common sense, we're not robots. RxS (talk) 19:24, 4 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
we dont need crystal ball for unemployment news. we cant not post things due to future events but i am talking about past events and current events. this same news has come up for many countries over last couple months and still coming every day. we didnt even need to wait 2 days for US news to show up. it is expected news at start of september for most countries. since EU does everything together they release it for EU rather than separate countries thats only difference. -- Ashish-g5519:59, 4 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
This isn't a news service and we're not obligated to include all news items on a certain topic. ITN is here to spotlight articles with recently updated content. It'd be silly to outlaw a class of news items because they are in the news regularly. That does ITN and the readers a real disservice, undermines why ITN even exists. RxS (talk) 14:56, 5 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
i am very well aware this isnt a news service. but which updated articles are u referring to? i am sure equal amounts of updates can be made for same news in other countries too. most of the time we make updates here ourselves depending on if we want to post it. -- Ashish-g5519:23, 5 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Posted — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 10:28, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
Posted — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 20:10, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
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Done, next time please request suggestions like this to WP:ERRORS. Thanks — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 15:09, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
Sent two months into the future. --candle•wicke 23:52, 1 September 2009 (UTC)