User talk:Davide King

Amazing Patience

		The Barnstar of Infinite Patience
		This barnstar is to award you for displaying a superpower level of infinite and invincible patience.

Happy New Year

Happy New Year 2021 I hope your New Year holiday is enjoyable and the coming year is much better than the one we are leaving behind. Best wishes from Los Angeles.   // Timothy :: talk

A barnstar for your efforts

		The Original Barnstar
		Awarded for your continuous improvements to Communism. Awarded by Cdjp1 on 25 August 2021

Awesome work on the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine! Larsobrien 06:58, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

Mirrored Archive

FYI: https://InfoGalactic.com/info/Mass_killings_under_communist_regimes_(mirrored_archive) ~ JasonCarswell (talk)

Cookie for you!

Here's a cookie for thanking me so many times!

Wikileaks

Wikileaks provides a good selection of writings between editors of Communism-related articles.[1] Most of the editors mentioned later changed their user names and are still editing. TFD (talk) 21:06, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

The Four Deuces, that was absolutely disgusting. How is it possible that it does not appear to be changed? E.g. Gestapo–NKVD conferences, Warsaw concentration camp hoax. Are they not, or at least come of them, the same users involved in the mail list? Davide King (talk) 05:57, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

A hint: many of those users changed their names after that story, and it may be quite likely that you may be currently interacting with some of those users (the most plausible figure is three). Just keep that in mind and be cautious. That does not mean you need to suspect everybody, you can always figure out their old names. Paul Siebert (talk) 22:52, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

Hmm, interestingly, who in a clear mind could assert that "Protocols..." were not manufactured? Just a random thought, totally irrelevant to this thread, never mind.--Paul Siebert (talk) 23:42, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

Paul Siebert, they really do not appear to understand: "Some of the claims even look ridiculous. For example, as cited, 'The book's main thesis reads thus: our century's fundamental crime was not the Holocaust, but rather the existence of Communism. Through the manipulation of numbers ...'. OK. But, first of all, how is this a 'manipulation with numbers'. Secondly, why is that antisemitic? We need very short, logical and understandable description of the reception, not a scandal mongering, please." Davide King (talk) 22:51, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

“It's always possible to wake someone from sleep, but no amount of noise will wake someone who is pretending to be asleep.”

There are some (very few) users whom I am not discussing, and on whom I am not commenting, unless a situation is extraordinary. There is no extraordinary situation yet. Paul Siebert (talk) 06:19, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

Paul Siebert, very good quote, thanks! Have you seen their allegations that Engel-Di Mauro may be one of us or that we must be one of his current or former students?1 I am sure it was more towards me than you because you correctly pointed out their double standards about Rummel (no issue) and Engel-Di Mauro (fringe), even though I had no idea who he was until I found that article on Google Scholar and added at The Black Book of Communism (I agree with you on this, though Rummel really believed in it while Engel-Di Mauro did it mostly to show the double standard, and I also agree on Aquillion on this that as long as we are going to use and rely on the Black Book, it is a good source for balance and criticism of it, especially because their expertise seem to be relevant enough on famines — of course, Ó Gráda is top notch) which took it to RSN, which confirmed my addition. I do agree with Robert McClenon that AE is just going to be a distraction and take so much space but such false allegations should be thrown out immediately, not put forward without any evidence, and certainly not in a talk page of an article. Davide King (talk) 16:23, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

Tombs

You are fine with including that reference? ~ cygnis insignis 07:34, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

cygnis insignis, are you referring to Lester?1 While it is a blog, it is an university blog written by an expert and it is actually cited by Solares2, who is also an expert and is not self-published, which makes it due; in addition, it appears that Tombs and Reclaimed History have engaged in historical revisionism, especially about colonialism, and is politically partisan rather than independent/non-partisan as claimed, and Lester and Solares presents a mainstream view, so they are indeed due and fine for NPOV. This is my proposed paragraph. Davide King (talk) 11:03, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

I meant this https://wiki.eso.workers.dev/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/1064201411 ~ cygnis insignis 11:14, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

See my comment here. Ideally, it should be removed because we should really mainly on scholarly sources, and because it is about the proposed deletion of the article, not the topic itself. It should at least be moved down rather than used as false balance for Gerlach. Davide King (talk) 11:21, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

Reading that comment is what prompted the question. I’m now considering how coi might be a factor, and whether my response can be included for ‘balance’ ~ cygnis insignis 11:32, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

What do you mean exactly? What is your response? We cannot use the AfD's closure rejecting Tombs' false allegations. As I said, it should simply be removed and it is certainly not going to make it for any "Good article" rewrite status because it is a news source (the lowest acceptable type of WP:RS), it is used as false balance for Gerlach, is about the AfD nomination, not the topic, and it is cherry picking a passing mention. Since some users are just going to edit warring about it, we should just move it down in the next section about ideology, as I did. If you want to remove it, you can do that, but there is going to be an edit war about it and I would not want you to be blocked for it because you are simply making us respect the policies. Davide King (talk) 11:43, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

I meant to illustrate the absurdity of its inclusion. I’ll take your warnings into consideration before seeking your view again, I misunderstood your position on how Wikipedia works ~ cygnis insignis 11:59, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

I agree with "the absurdity of its inclusion." What did you misunderstand about how it works? I hope I helped you. Davide King (talk) 12:54, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

cygnis insignis, there is also this: Some, such as the Chinese Communist Party, have attempted to suppress discussion and study of such killings.

References

As I wrote here, the news source is not about the topic and is referring only to Tiananmen ("China's Communist leaders have made any discussion of the brutal quelling of the student-led demonstrations -- in which hundreds, maybe thousands, were killed -- taboo, but dissidents say the public could yet hold them accountable.") It is just more editorializing and SYNTH. Davide King (talk) 03:55, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

I want to avoid commenting on that, please excuse my not examining the comparison for that reason. Another matter, can I say that I will assume you appreciate my contributions without being notified each time; an example of a helpful 'thanks' being triggered is receiving one after what I hope is an improvement to another creator's earnest efforts in mainspace. ~ cygnis insignis 15:21, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

Sorry about that, I do understand and no worries. :) Davide King (talk) 15:27, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

Talk:Mass killings under communist regimes (Nug)

So synthesis is determined by notability now... By your logic if a scholar does not meet WP:GNG then we can exclude their source as synthesis. Did I get that right? That's a novel approach, you should try it at WP:RSN sometime, or maybe that's WP:ORN, I'm confused. Anyway, you have just undermined pages and pages of your own arguments against Rummel due to what Karlsson says; on the basis that Karlsson isn't notable according to WP:GNG so relying on Karlsson's criticisms of Rummel is synthesis, according to you. --Nug (talk) 21:58, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

No, you did not get me right, though I may not have explained myself clearly enough. As you can see by the fact I ignored this because I am just really tired, I was simply trying to highlight that you have been flip floppy on the source, and I never said that it was the best source, or even a good one, just that it was the closest to what you propose, yet you dismissed it as non-notable back then and when it showed Courtois' and Rummel's problems, and it is still not notable. NPOV is a bigger issue than SYNTH anyway. I also never said the source said "controversial", it was my paraphrasing, and while I think you also gave a good summary, I do not understand how you cannot still see it as problematic, if "controversial" is the issue; you totally ignore that the comparison is "controversial" and politicized, so it only amplifies it further and cannot be core sources for NPOV.

I never said the authors were not notable but according to your notability criteria of citation counts their research review was not notable, hence the SYNTH issue remains. Just because something is published, it does not mean the SYNTH issue is solved if it is from an unreliable source or, as in this case, is not notable as you have argued before. Why do you think TFD said there were no sources on the topic other than Karlsson? It is what Aquillion said, that "such an amalgamation (as we have currently) effectively uses the list from A as synthesis to support the arguments presented in B; it's an inherently non-neutral article." That is the SYNTH, and what TFD, Siebert, and I meant when saying it attempts to prove the thesis of the Black Book, and is not something that the non-notable Karlsoon 2008 paper debunks or is alone enough to overcome. I am more interested in your change of mind about this source anyway, and you can justify such a change. Was TFD right all long back then to explain its lack of citation and thsu notability to you?

But I do think the issue may also be on our understanding of the topic; I am looking at universally recognized mass killings ("Karlsson isn't dismissing that mass killing occurred under communist regimes", me neither so what is the point? I think Karlsson may be a good source for comparative analysis of Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot, including their mass killings; just because I do not support your version or vision of the article, it does not mean I do not support any at all), hence why I search for "Communist mass killings" or "Mass killings" "Communist regimes", while you are searching "Communist crimes" (as you did here), yet all three mostly shows articles about individual Communist countries. In fact, I get this at page 2: "The narrative of the heroic anti-fascist struggle has been delegitimized along with the communist regimes, and the trauma of communist crimes is placed at the core of remembrance strategies. The resulting divided memory ... ." This is the proper context, and is how I understand the topic, while you and other users appear to understanding state "reappropriation" of memories, hence why I think TFD said there are users that are believers and is what I believe they are referring to. When this appears to be the case, there can be no productive discussion. Certainly, this one was better and I 'thanked' you for it, and I wish we could have the same about MKuCR.

It is a shame because we have agreed on CounterPunch and at Talk:Soviet and Communist studies you have a good argument that I can support, we just cannot, and are not going to, agree on Mass killings under communist regimes or whatever is supposed to be. Even though I am trying to disengage and leave more space to others, it does not mean I am not interested to reply to you — I just do not want that to be used as an excuse to accuse me of bludgenoning, which I believe you did go that way; plus, the fact you continue to reply shows that you are at least interested enough to reply me back, I just do not think it is a productive way to hold it at Talk:Mass killings under communist regimes, and you did not seem to engage with me at your talk page either. So unless we find a better avenue to discuss this, I think that it is better that we just end this and call it quits.

Davide King (talk) 01:11, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

Help for Draft:Dado Coletti

Good morning from Coreca, I am writing to greet you and to know how you are. I'm fine enough for now. I am writing to ask you for help with the voice that has now become a draft, Dado Coletti, which you will surely know. If I understand correctly, he has some requirements that do not apply to here. Could you help me to reinforce, expand and improve the article? I don't know which way to turn. For the rest, I thank you and greet you. See you soon and thanks again.--Luigi Salvatore Vadacchino (talk) 02:52, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

Answer to your ping

I'm reading through the sources I posted and working (offline) on revisions to the Terminology section, and pretty much ignoring everything else. At this point, the scope is set by the RFC, and I don't really see the value in discussing anything other than soliciting sources (and objections to sources), as we've done. The RM is a distraction, not worth my time to pay attention to it. I doubt there is anything worthwhile to discuss until somebody makes an edit. I'm probably going to be editing the Terminology section today or tomorrow. Levivich 15:59, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

I don't see the point of much of the discussion. My view was that there were insufficient sources to write a neutral article. Paul Siebert says a neutral article could be written, so I will leave it to him to change the article. The other major contributor seems to be arguing for the sake of arguing.

I also see little need for the move discussion. It's better to leave it to the end.

TFD (talk) 19:07, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

@Levivich: I deleted the "Terminology" section, because its existence is hardly compatible with the "B-type" article's structure. In general, my impression from sources is that we cannot discuss "the" correlation (or a lack thereof) between Communism and mass killings. This topic seems to be totally different from, e.g. Holodomor, and it requires a different approach. Thus, whereas there is an agreement among scholars on what is Holodomor, what was its scale and nature, but there are some debates (in a form of round tables, journal publications etc) whether Holodomor was a genocide, and what is a role of Communist leadership in it.

In contrast, there is absolutely no agreement among scholars about MKuCR: some of them (a majority) do not consider them as a single topic, some of them discuss just a subset of them, and it is absolutely no consensus on what categories of deaths should be considered as mass killing victims. Moreover, there is even no open disputes about the topic as a whole, for different schools of thought are working in isolation from others. That is especially true for "genocide scholars". Thus, I found no references to Rummel in the Courtois part of the Black Book.

In connection to that, we cannot speak about some single correlation between some well defined "mass killings" and some well defined "Communism", for different authors discuss different subsets of mass deaths and find different correlations (sometimes, positive sometimes, negative), of see no correlation at all, and these correlations are linked to different "Communisms" (which range from Malia's "generic Communism" to only "Stalinism"). Therefore, no single "terminology" section, no single "Estimate" section, and no single "Causes" section can be in a new article. Estimates, terminology and causes are tightly linked, and most authors consider different subsets of the events, for which they may propose different estimates (which depend not only on accuracy of figures, but on which categories the author take into account), and different causes. The content should be organized as:

"The author X combines the events A, B, C, D into a single category, which they call "Y". According to their estimates, the number of victims was "Z", and the author X concluded that Y was linked to Communism as follows (... explanation of the theory...)"

Therefore, it would be correct to remove "Terminology" completely, and then to re-add relevant parts into the article with a new structure. What do you think about that? Paul Siebert (talk) 00:40, 1 February 2022 (UTC)

(edit conflict)

Levivich, The Four Deuces, I agree and that is why I avoided commented, though I do think some of their repeated claims do need to be challenged for other users reading (I was just tired of doing this). I also agree about the neutral issue and the only NPOV article would be the victims of Communism narrative; of course, I would be fine with not using that name (Communism and mass killing and the like would be fine), but that should be the structure and the topic. I also think that it is time to start editing (I command Levivich for thinking of doing this), remove all stuff about A and C, and start reworking the lead about the relationship between communism, or more accurately 'Communist states', and mass killing(s), and the memory politics behind it. Davide King (talk) 00:43, 1 February 2022 (UTC)

I hope Davide will forgive me for this unorthodox use of his talk page (feel free to delete it if it's not useful), but the most effective thing I can think of doing to answer about terminology is to just share with you all my collection of quotes from the sources about terminology. This is part of what I think should be summarized, in wikivoice as much as possible, in the article. I'm not finished collecting quotes, and haven't yet started attempting to summarize it. But I think if you just skim this, the relevancy becomes obvious.

Extended content

CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY Jones 2017 p. 818 The concept of “crimes against humanity” predates that of genocide. It was first used in an international context in 1915. As the Ottoman genocide against Christian minorities raged (see Chapter 4), the Allies of the Triple Entente—Russia, France, and Great Britain— gathered to issue a statement of protest and concern. The proposed Russian wording condemned “crimes … against Christianity and civilization,” but the other Allies felt this could bring yet more persecution upon the ravaged Christian populations of Anatolia. Accordingly, an agreement was struck to change the text to denounce instead crimes “against humanity and civilization.” p. 818-819 For genocide scholars and students, the areas of conceptual crossover and divergence with the UN Genocide Convention are worth noting. Crimes against humanity are 818 characterized by two main requisites: they must be “widespread or systematic,” and they must be committed in the course of an attack “directed against any civilian population” (Rome Statute). Neither of these requirements is found in the Genocide Convention, though in practical application and prosecution, genocide has generally been viewed as targeting civilians (or at least non-combatants). The “widespread” scale and “systematic” character of atrocities likewise supply important evidence that a campaign of genocide is underway. Importantly, the “murder” and “extermination” provisions of crimes against humanity legislation do not require that the civilian victims be members of a particular national, ethnic, racial, or religious collectivity, as the Genocide Convention does. Moreover, the Rome Statute’s prohibition against “persecution” of “identifiable group[s]” references a wider range of collectivities than does the Convention, including “political,” “cultural,” and “gender” groups. Semelin 343 However, the term ‘politicide’ has little currency among some researchers because it has no legal validity in international law. That is one reason why Jean-Louis Margolin tends to recognise what happened in Cambodia as ‘genocide’because,as he points out,to speak of ‘politicide’ amounts to considering Pol Pot’s crimes as less grave than those of Hitler.87 Again, the weight of justice interferes in the debate about concepts that, once again, argue strongly in favour of using the word genocide.But those so concerned about the issue of legal sanctions should also take into account another legal concept that is just as powerful, and better established: that of the crime against humanity.In fact,legal scholars such as Antoine Garapon and David Boyle believe that the violence perpetrated by the Khmer Rouge is much more appropriately categorised under the heading of crime against humanity,even if genocidal tendencies can be identified, particularly against the Muslim minority.88 This accusation is just as serious as that of genocide (the latter moreover being sometimes considered as a subcategory of the former) and should thus be subject to equally severe sentences. I quite agree with these legal scholars, believing that the notion of ‘crime against humanity’ is generally better suited to the violence perpetrated by communist regimes, a viewpoint also shared by Michael Mann.89 Stone 256 (Schabas) This formulation was similar to the war crimes clauses in the Treaty of Versailles. But the Treaty of Sèvres contained a major innovation, contemplating prosecution of what we now define as ‘crimes against humanity’38 as well as of war crimes. (257) However, the first successful international prosecution for genocide, that of the Nazi leaders at Nuremberg, did not, in fact, use the term. International lawyers opted for the somewhat more familiar concept of ‘crimes against humanity’ rather than the much newer one of genocide. (264) The International Criminal Court can prosecute three categories of ‘core crime’, genocide, crimes against humanity and war crimes, with the future prospect of aggression being included. Karlsson 2008 p. 5 The term ‘crimes against humanity’, used in the formulation of the title of this review, has been in use for a hundred years and is used in international legal and political discourse to describe the Young Turk government’s brutal treatment of its Armenian subjects during the First World War in the declining Ottoman Empire. It was codified for the first time thirty years later, in the statute that formed the legal ground for the International Military Tribunal in Nuremberg following the Second World War, and was then broadly defined as ‘murder, extermination, enslavement, deportation, and other inhumane acts committed against civilian populations, before or during the war; or persecutions on political, racial or religious grounds…’. This definition is very similar to the one in the 1998 Rome Statute, the treaty that has regulated the International Criminal Court (ICC) since 20021 . This broad definition has the advantage in this context that it covers all the widely varying types of inhumane actions carried out by communist regimes against their own people, and the various underlying mechanisms and motives. It is particularly ‘practical’ that political motives are mentioned explicitly, since this can be applied to the communist regimes’ persecution of opposition groups. As we know, the idea that victim categories can be defined politically is not compatible with the UN Genocide Convention, since the communist Soviet Union and its satellite states in Eastern Europe opposed this development in the political process that led to the adoption of the convention2 GENOCIDE Jones 2017 Until the Second World War, genocide was a “crime without a name,” in the words of British Prime Minister Winston Churchill. 42 The man who named the crime, placed it in a globalhistorical context, and demanded intervention and remedial action was a Polish-Jewish jurist, a refugee from Nazi-occupied Europe, named Raphael Lemkin (1900–1959). His story is one of the most remarkable of the twentieth century. Lemkin is an exceptional example of a “norm entrepreneur” (see Chapter 12). In the space of four years, he coined a term—genocide—that concisely defined an age-old phenomenon. He supported it with a wealth of documentation. He published a lengthy book (Axis Rule in Occupied Europe) that applied the concept to campaigns of genocide underway in Lemkin’s native Poland and elsewhere in the Nazi-occupied territories. He then waged a successful campaign to persuade the new United Nations to draft a convention against genocide; another successful campaign to obtain the required number of signatures; and yet another to secure the necessary national ratifications. Yet Lemkin lived in penury—in surely his wittiest recorded comment, he described himself as “pleading a holy cause at the UN while wearing holey clothes” 43—and he died in obscurity in 1959; his funeral drew just seven people. Only in recent years has the promise of his concept, and the UN convention that incorporated it, begun to be realized Semelin p. 308 Even while Auschwitz was still operating and Germany was far from having lost the war, on the other side of the Atlantic an American legal scholar of Polish stock,Raphael Lemkin,then professor at Yale University, invented the word ‘genocide’. While he had very little reliable information about what was going on at the core of Nazi Europe, Lemkin had an intuition that something totally unheard-of was happening,which in his eyes justified the coining of a new term. He therefore devoted an entire chapter to it in a book published in 1944.1 Scarcely four years later,the United Nations adopted the new notion in the context of the International Convention on the Prevention and Repression of the Crime of Genocide, passed in Paris on 9 December 1948, just before this same assembly approved the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. What an achievement for an academic to see a word he had coined himself recognised so quickly on an international scale! The international Nuremberg and Tokyo tribunals set up by the victors of the Second World War had nevertheless resorted to a new notion in November 1945 and January 1946—the ‘crime against humanity’—in prosecuting the Germans and Japanese responsible for such acts. But realisation at the end of the war of the true nature of the crimes the Nazis committed against European Jewry probably explains why the notion of ‘genocide’ was so readily adopted within the newly-emerging ‘international community’. And so the word genocide gradually came into use in ordinary language to denote absolute evil,the crime of all crimes perpetrated against innocent populations Stone 9 (Chapter 1) Genocide is one of those rare concepts whose author and inception can be precisely specified and dated. The term was created by the brilliant PolishJewish jurist Raphael Lemkin (1900–59), in his book Axis Rule in Occupied Europe: Laws of Occupation, Analysis of Government, Proposals for Redress, published in the USA in 1944. Lemkin was also the prime mover in the discussions that led to the 1948 United Nations (UN) Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide. The concept was immediately recognized worldwide to be of contemporary significance and future importance, for it calls attention to humanity at its limits. It is a major concept in international law, for its framework of group experience and rights challenges both a stress on the individual as the subject of law and the exclusive jurisdiction of modern nation states Stone 44 (Anton Weiss-Wendt) Scott Straus has counted 21 different definitions of genocide. Genocide has been a legal, political, moral, and empirical concept that means different things to different people.10 There are several scholars, including Helen Fein, Leo Kuper, Herbert Hirsch, and Kurt Jonassohn, who question the very rationale for the debate on definition. Midlarsky 18 The term genocide was coined by Raphael Lemkin 1944, 79. This definition provided the basis for the somewhat later one devised by the United Nations. Midlarsky 22 As stated in the introduction, genocide is understood to be the statesponsored systematic mass murder of innocent and helpless men, women, and children denoted by a particular ethnoreligious identity, with the purpose of eradicating that group from a given territory. ... I distinguish between genocide as the systematic mass murder of people based on ethnoreligious identity, and politicide as the large-scale killing of designated enemies of the state based on socioeconomic or political criteria POLITICIDE Jones 2017 Politicide. Barbara Harff and Ted Gurr’s term for mass killing according to “hierarchical position or political opposition to the regime and dominant groups,” as this identification is imputed by the state (see Box 1.4). Examples: Harff and Gurr consider “revolutionary oneparty states” to be the most common perpetrators of genocide. The term may also be applied to the mass killings of alleged “communists” and “subversives” in, e.g., Latin America during the 1970s and 1980s. Source: Barbara Harff, “No Lessons Learned from the Holocaust? Assessing Risks of Genocide and Political Mass Murder since 1955,” American Political Science Review, 97: 1 (2003). (A blog, “The Liberal Ironist,” offers an interesting alternative definition of politicide: “the mass killing by the state of the members of a voluntary association such as a political party, professional group or class of propertyholders.”) 98 Semelin p. 309 Other terms appeared subsequently such as ‘politicide’, coined by Ted Gurr and Barbara Harff in 1988. Semelin 319 Other researchers have attempted to break free from the UN Convention to explore new avenues. Since the Convention left out political mass murders, they have simply suggested naming them as such.The word ‘genocide’being a neologism,they have felt justified in coining other terms to refer to different phenomena. Thus Barbara Harff and Ted Gurr forged the notion of ‘politicide’ to designate mass murders of a political nature. In truth their approach remains modelled on that of the UN, their notion of ‘politicide’ being in all appearance a lexical solution to compensate for the lack of a political criterion. Thus they consider that genocide refers to the case of mass murders that target groups of a ‘communitarian’ nature defined by ethnic or religious criteria,whereas politicide targets groups whose victims are considered according to their opposition to the dominant power. These authors thus see an analytical advantage in differentiating the two notions which they believe elsewhere to be complementary, whence their tendency to speak of ‘geno-politicide’.28 Kranjc 585 A far more neutral term, despite Naimark’s dismissal, is politicide, which was coined by political scientists Barbara Harff and Ted Robert Gurr to describe cases where “the victim groups are defined primarily in terms of their hierarchical position or political opposition to the regime and dominant groups,” thus filling the definitional hole left by the 1948 genocide convention.93 Since politicide still has “as yet no generally accepted definition” or international legal standing, it remains a seldom used term outside of scholarly circles.94 One historian who has employed this term to describe the postwar killings in Yugoslavia is Paul Mojzes, who stressed that “the killing was intended, but it was not on the basis of race, ethnicity, culture, or religion; it was based on ideology and political conviction. The victims were regarded as traitors and betrayers of their country.” 95 Stone 47 (Aton Weiss-Wendt) Of twenty or so different terms that incorporate the Latin derivative cide only one has been warranted. I am referring to the concept of politicide introduced in the late 1980s by Barbara Harff. Herself a political scientist, Harff sought to fill the void left by the UN Genocide Convention, which fails to mention political groups. She has emphasized that in contrast to genocide, in politicide the victimized groups are defined primarily in terms of their political opposition to the regime.29 Despite the narrow definition of politicide, some scholars have compromised this term by using it indiscriminately to cover borderline cases that fall outside the scope of the UN Genocide Convention. Midlarsky 22 I distinguish between genocide as the systematic mass murder of people based on ethnoreligious identity, and politicide as the large-scale killing of designated enemies of the state based on socioeconomic or political criteria. Although genocide can be understood to be a species of politicide (but not the converse), in practice, genocidal (i.e., ethnoreligious) killings tap into much deeper historical roots of the human condition. In this distinction, I follow Harff and Gurr 1988, 360. Midlarsky 24 In contrast to genocides, politicides – the mass murder of designated socioeconomic or political enemies of the state – not only typically leave the majority of the population intact after purging the economic or political ‘‘offenders,’’ but do not necessarily destroy the cultural infrastructure of the victim. Even if attacked and partially destroyed, enough of the infrastructure survives to build anew as in the former communist countries that experienced this form of state-sponsored mass murder. Harff 2017 p. 112-113 Moreover, the working definitions of empiricists almost invariably include politicide, the killing of people because of their political and social affiliations. Indeed, Lemkin included destruction of a people’s political and social institutions, but the politics of the UN General Assembly precluded inclusion of this type of mass killing, now generally called politicide. DEMOCIDE Jones 2017 Democide. Term invented by R.J. Rummel to encompass “the murder of any person or people by a government, including genocide, politicide, and mass murder.” Examples: Rummel particularly emphasizes the “megamurders” of twentieth-century totalitarian regimes. Source: R.J. Rummel, Death by Government (Transaction Publishers, 1997). Semelin 319-320 Rudolph Rummel casts aside the notion of ‘genocide’ in favour of a term of his own invention:‘democide’.He defines democide as being any mass murder perpetrated by a government leaving at least one million dead, whether it is genocide, politicide or any other mass murder.29 However,an attentive reading reveals that he suggests this term more for moral than scholarly reasons, primarily to cover all the victims of state-perpetrated violence. In this he is closer to THE POLITICAL USES OF MASSACRE AND GENOCIDE 319 Charny’s approach, except that unlike the latter he refuses to define genocide in broad terms. Furthermore, his definition poses a problem in that,although it strives to cover all cases of massacre, it does not take into account those perpetrated by non-state actors Kranjc 585 Another equally plausible alternative to politicide would be the much broader term of “democide.” Introduced by sociologist Theodore Abel in 1951, the definition of democide reads in a manner that Lemkin probably initially intended for the definition of genocide: “extermination procedures against a population selected on the basis of any kind of social attribute, racial, religious, educational, political, cultural, and so forth, including even distinctions on the basis of age.” 96 The fact that politicide and democide are employed primarily by a narrow cohort of scholars may remove some of the “stigma” that is associated with the awesome (and legally imprecise) accusation of genocide. (Theodore Abel, “The Sociology of Concentration Camps,” Social Forces 30, no. 2 (1951): 151) Stone 46 (Anton Weiss-Wendt) Dissatisfied with the legal definition of genocide, Rudolf Rummel coined another term, democide. According to Rummel, democide denotes not only premeditated killing but also unintentional death by government, for example, excessive mortality among prisoners in camps and during deportations. To justify the need for the new term, Rummel refers to the staggering number of civilians killed in violent conflicts other than wars. Indeed, it was Rummel who in 1985 pioneered the statistical study of mass killing. The figures that Rummel cites in his studies, however, come entirely from secondary sources, many of them dated. As Tomislav Dulic´ has recently demonstrated, Rummel’s method of estimation is fundamentally flawed.23 Altogether, figures and graphs, or ‘the statistics of democide’ as Rummel calls it, have little practical value, telling us nothing about the phenomenon of genocide. Although Rummel points out that democide is different from genocide, he insists that the later is a constituent of the former. By arguing that genocide simultaneously is and is not democide, Rummel in effect sows even more confusion. The use of the terms like ‘kilomurders’, ‘hell-state’, and ‘mortacracy’24 further undermines the argumentative prowess of Rummel’s scholarship. Midlarsky 18 Rudolph Rummel 1998, 1–13, has coined the term democide to refer to the killing of large numbers of people by the state. Harff 2017 p. 112 Rudy devoted five books to the systematic analysis of democide, four of them published within a span of five years. Lethal Politics (1990) documented Soviet mass killings after 1917, China’s Bloody Century (1991) was the second, and the third covered Nazi Genocide and Mass Murder (1992). The capstone was Death by Government (1994), which summarized the empirical and theoretical basis of his concept of democide, with documentation of many other cases. The fifth book, Statistics of Democide (1998) showed just how thoroughly and carefully he compiled and analyzed the data he used. Definitions are crucial to a new and broad concept like democide. Rummel (1994: 42) summarizes a chapter-long discussion with this: ‘A death constitutes democide if it is the intentional killing of an unarmed or disarmed person by government agents acting in their authoritative capacity and pursuant to government policy or high command’. He adds that it encompasses reckless and wanton disregard for the lives of forced labor and concentration camp victims; ‘unofficial’ killings by private groups; extrajudicial summary killings; and mass deaths that occurred because governments ignored or perpetrated their causes, as in deliberate famines. Elsewhere (p. 37) he adds that it includes killings by de facto governments, i.e. rebels or warlords. * * Rummel points out that democide comprises genocides, but not all genocidal phenomena as detailed by Raphael Lemkin and codified in the UN’s 1948 Genocide Convention.2 The Convention includes policies whose intent is to cause mental harm, to inflict conditions of life aimed to bring about the group’s physical destruction in whole or part, and measures intended to prevent birth. Specifically, the crime of genocide is the intent to eliminate ‘in whole or part’ a national, racial, ethnic, or religious group. Insofar as this entails direct killing of group members, it is included in democide. (113) In short, conceptually democide includes all the mass killings associated with genocide and politicide, but also many others that are not aimed at the intentional destruction of a particular group. And normatively their objectives also are somewhat different. The study of democide leads to condemnation of entire categories of governments because they are at risk of killing large numbers of citizens; comparative study of genocide aims to help identify specific governments for specific crimes against humanity. Saucier 81 Genocide has been defined as “the sustained, purposeful action by a perpetrator [usually the state] to physically destroy a collectivity directly (through mass or selective murders and calculable physical destruction) or through interdiction of the biological and social reproduction of group members.”7 The concept of genocide is ambiguous in scope. Sometimes it is taken to include murderous suppression of political opposition and sometimes not (as in the 1948 United Nations Convention, based on Lemke’s well-known compromise to resolve an impasse in the convention). Some have remedied this gap by conducting studies of genocide plus politicide.8 Here, we adopt Rummel’s broader term (democide), to be clear that political suppression is not artificially excluded. By this definition, democide is “the murder of any person or people by a government, including genocide, politicide, or mass murder.”9 In our view, Rummel’s definition is too extensive in taking the murder by government of a single individual (e.g., an assassination) to be democide; it would be better to restrict the term to systematic killing of large numbers of noncombatant (civilian) individuals. This definition does not require the stated purpose of eliminating an entire group. Our slightly adjusted definition of democide ends up similar in scope to Valentino’s preferred terminology referencing “mass killing;”10 a difference is that Valentino used 50,000 deaths as a minimum threshold, whereas to take better account of democide against smallscale societies (with, in fact, often fewer than 50,000 lives to lose) we employed a lower threshold. Stenfelt 2015 (Karlsson 2015 ch. 3) p. 71 “Body count” is a term usually associated with the political scientist Rudolf J. Rummel, as well as the term democide used by him as a definition of “the murder of any person or people by a government.” CLASSICIDE Jones 2017 Classicide. Term coined by Michael Mann to refer to “the intended mass killing of entire social classes.” Examples: The destruction of the “kulaks” in Stalin’s USSR (Chapter 5); Cambodia under the Khmer Rouge (Chapter 7). Source: Michael Mann, The Dark Side of Democracy (Cambridge University Press, 2004). Semelin p. 37 Mann however refuses to use the term ‘genocide’ to describe the crimes committed under communism.He prefers the terms ‘fratricide’and ‘classicide’, a word he coined to refer to intentional mass killings of entire social classes. MASS KILLING Jones 2017 p. 56 The critical question, for Lemkin, was whether the multipronged campaign proceeded under the rubric of policy. To the extent that it did, it could be considered genocidal, even if it did not result in the physical destruction of all (or any) members of the group. 55 The issue of whether mass killing is definitional to genocide has been debated ever since, by myriad scholars and commentators, and will be considered further below. Equally vexing for subsequent generations was the emphasis on ethnic and national groups. These predominated as victims in the decades in which Lemkin developed his framework (and in the historical examples he studied). Yet by the end of the 1940s, it was clear that political groups were often targeted for annihilation. 56 Moreover, the appellations applied to “communists,” or by communists to “kulaks” or “class enemies”—when imposed by a totalitarian state—seemed every bit as difficult to shake as ethnic identifications, if the Nazi and Stalinist onslaughts were anything to go by. This does not even take into account the important but ambiguous areas of crossover among ethnic, political, and social categories (see “Multiple and Overlapping Identities,” below). NAMES IN GENERAL Semelin p. 320 Other new notions have appeared that have no more legal substance than the others. We could mention ‘Judeocide’30 (to refer to any massacre of Jews), ‘ecocide’ to describe the destruction of an ecosystem,31 ‘feminicide’ referring to the specific destruction of women,32 ‘libricide’ for the destruction of libraries,33 ‘urbicide’ for that of cities and ‘elitocide’ for that of elites, and ‘linguicide’ and ‘culturicide’34,not to forget ‘fratricide’,‘classicide’and ‘ethnocide’.35 This proliferation of terms, most of which have appeared since the Second World War, attests to a new tendency in the social sciences that strives to explore phenomena of destruction as such. At first it was as if researchers’ attempts had focused on how to name them in order to be able to think about them.There are in fact no research traditions in this area from which to draw.Such terminological abundance can thus be interpreted as an indicator of the wealth of a field of studies under construction.But such diversity also attests to another fact:the huge difficulty of grasping the object studied, of delimiting it, of framing it properly through definitions. The result is reflected in the countless misunderstandings and disagreements between researchers themselves who are nevertheless often studying the same historical cases. ‘Classicide’, in counterpoint to genocide, has a certain appeal, but it doesn’t convey the fact that communist regimes, beyond their intention of destroying ‘classes’—a difficult notion to grasp in itself (what exactly is a ‘kulak’?)—end up making political suspicion a rule of government: every individual can potentially be accused of ideological deviance, even within the Party (and perhaps even mainly within the Party).The notion of ‘fratricide’is probably more appropriate in this regard. That of ‘politicide’, which Ted Gurr and Barbara Harff suggest, remains the most intelligent, although it implies by contrast that ‘genocide’ is not ‘political’, which is debatable.These authors in effect explain that the aim of politicide is to impose total political domination over a group or a government.Its victims are defined by their position in the social hierarchy or their political opposition to the regime or this dominant group.85 Such an approach applies well to the political violence of communist powers and more particularly to Pol Pot’s Democratic Kampuchea. The French historian Henri Locard in fact emphasises this, identifying with Gurr and Harff’s approach in his work on Cambodia.86 However, the term ‘politicide’ has little currency among some researchers because it has no legal validity in international law. That is one reason why Jean-Louis Margolin tends to recognise what happened in Cambodia as ‘genocide’because,as he points out,to speak of ‘politicide’ amounts to considering Pol Pot’s crimes as less grave than those of Hitler.87 Again, the weight of justice interferes in the debate about concepts that, once again, argue strongly in favour of using the word genocide Kranjc 578 ...war crimes, crimes against humanity, and genocide – will be analysed in order to establish how accurate they are in capturing the historical essence of what occurred in 1945. The last three terms, which constitute the “big three crimes” in international law, will be additionally analysed to see if their legal requirements are met by the postwar killings.

Basically, yes, we need to explain to the reader the difference between crimes against humanity and genocide, why some scholars don't like the term "genocide" and have used different terms (specifically: politicide, democide, classicide), and why various scholars think each of these terms are better than the others to describe mass killings by Communist Party regimes. Levivich 00:53, 1 February 2022 (UTC)

We cannot explain this per synthesis, we can only report explanations provided in sources about the topic, i.e., that are about MKuCR and not isolated countries or comparisons of Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot. For example, the article Nuremberg trials provides the definitions of war crimes and crimes against humanity in Principle VI of the Nuremberg principles. Had the U.N. set up a "Crimes of Communism" tribunal, we would have been able to do something similar. So that article says or should say Nazis were found guilty under these offenses as defined in the principles. It should not say they had committed war crimes and crimes against humanity. And bear in mind that there is no academic consensus on how these terms should be defined. TFD (talk) 13:35, 1 February 2022 (UTC)

Arbitrary break

Levivich, The Four Deuces, Paul Siebert — you are all free to use this as a safe space from bludgeoning and lack of understanding about the topic and scholarship. In regards to terminology, I think it may be fine to clarify this, though it should be very concise and essentially would still require removal and total rewrite of the section; I suggest to work on whether to include this, and if so, to agree on the phrasing and structure rather than re-adding the previous section, which is not an improvement. Davide King (talk) 00:56, 1 February 2022 (UTC)

Well, since my mind is on it anyway, here's what I think a terminology section ought to convey, in a nutshell:

• War crime, crime against humanity, and genocide are the "big three" international crimes, now punishable by ICC
  • War crime was in Treaty of Versailles (first time?)
  • Crime against humanity was in Treaty of Lausanne and is what the Nazis were charged with at Nuremburg, and unlike "war crimes" doesn't require "war"
  • Genocide is something Lemkin came up with in 1944 to describe "the crime without a name", which, according to Lemkin, is the mass killing of a particular group. The UN adopted it but changed the definition to limit it to racial/ethnic groups and not just any group, arguably due to Soviet pressure, so that "genocide" would apply to Nazis but not to Soviet mass killings of political or class or other groups. Since then, scholars have many definitions of "genocide" (somebody says Scott Straus did a review and I think it was 21 definitions up to that point).
• "Democide", aka "death by government" or the killing of a person/people by a government, was first defined by Abel in a 1951 paper but everyone says Rummel coined it in the 1990s; he certainly popularized it. Some definitions require it to be a group of people, not just an individual, and the size of the group varies (50k for Valentino, 100k for someone else IIRC)
• "Politicide" is Harff's term coined in the 1980s to describe mass killing of a political group.
• "Classicide" is Mann's term coined in 2005 to describe mass killing of a class (e.g. social or economic).
• Some scholars use each of these terms to describe mass killings by Communist Parties, and have different arguments for why each is a better term to describe those particular mass killings, including some who prefer the generic "mass killing" (though, still, they have different definitions of how many is "mass").
• "Red Holocaust" and "Communist genocide" are propaganda terms from Romania and Czechoslovakia (IIRC) used to propagate double genocide theory
• "Body count" (estimates of mass killings) will be heavily influenced by the exact definition used Levivich 01:22, 1 February 2022 (UTC)

Levivich, genocide and crime against humanity are legal terms: they are literally crimes. In contrast, "democide" or "politicide" is just a statistical category: the former was proposed by Rummel as a tool to collect the global database of all deaths inflicted by a government on its own population. Simolarly, "politicide" is a subset of democide that was used to establish correlation between some concrete kind of violence and the regime's type. Furthermore, "classicide" is a sociological category that was aimed to describe the event that was sociologically similar to "ethnic cleansing" (the idea was that perversion of liberal democracy leads to ethnic cleansing whereas perversion of socialist democracy leads to classicide). So we have different categories of terms (not like "kinetic energy" vs "potential energy", but like "energy" and "momentum"), which describe different subcategories, and none of them is applicable to MKuCR as a whole. Paul Siebert (talk) 01:02, 1 February 2022 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean by none of them is applicable to MKuCR as a whole, because, e.g., Jones, Semelin, Midlarsky, and others, all describe those terms in relation to mass killings under communist regimes. (search for "communist" in the quotes above for examples) Levivich 01:19, 1 February 2022 (UTC)

I am not sure they do it for Communism as a whole, rather than Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot, which is what I believe Siebert is referring to. I could be wrong though. Davide King (talk) 01:23, 1 February 2022 (UTC)

Right -- not for communism but for certain Communist Party regimes. Levivich 01:27, 1 February 2022 (UTC)

Well, I can explain.

"Politicide" was applied to such events as Great Purge or Campaign to suppress counter-revolutionaries, but not to Great Chinese famine. That means it was applied to events that lead to a small fraction of those "100 million victims"

"Classicide" was applied mostly to Cambodia, and, to much lesser extent, to China and USSR

Actually, only "Democide" is universally applicable to all deaths, but this term is tautological (as Mann rightly noticed). "All premature deaths under Communism fall under a definition of "democide", which is defined as all death caused, directly or indirectly, by action of some government".

And so on, and so forth.

As a result we have a perfect synthesis: the author A called Cambodian mass killings "classicide", the author B called Great purge "politicide", the author C called famine "Communist mass killings", the author D claimed Communists killed 100+ million, and the author E claimed that democide correlates with Communism. If we combine all of that together, we get a nice story about 100 million mass killings (ref author D) that are directly linked to linked to Communism (ref author E), and the only disagreement is if all of that should be called "classicide" per A, or it was "politicide" per B, or it was "Communist mass killings" per C. In other words, we have a totally misleading and biased narrative. Paul Siebert (talk) 03:43, 1 February 2022 (UTC)

I agree with this analysis and is why majority of scholarly sources do not do it for Communism as a whole but limit themselves to Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, and a few other examples. Incidentally, I believe this is why TFD thinks we cannot write a NPOV article about it, and the only solution is explain the 100 million victims of Communism narrative, while contrasting them with scholarly analysis about communism and mass killing that contextualize rather than generalized as Courtois, Rummel, et al. did. Davide King (talk) 04:29, 1 February 2022 (UTC)

Re: War Crimes. While the recognition of war crimes under international law may date only as far back as 1919, countries had prosecuted war criminals before then. In English common law, enemy aliens could not be prosecuted in civilian courts. However, as prisoners of war, they could be prosecuted under military tribunals, as explained in Calvin's Case 1608. Hence, Upper Canada prosecuted American invaders in 1838 and the U.S. prosecuted Confederate soldiers for war crimes, for example Henry Wirz. The Wikipedia article provides an earlier example of Peter von Hagenbach (1474). TFD (talk) 13:19, 1 February 2022 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for February 11

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Fixed it. Davide King (talk) 10:41, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for February 28

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My bad. Fixed it — thanks very much to Rodw. Davide King (talk) 14:28, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

"Russia invaded Ukraine" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Russia invaded Ukraine and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 February 24#Russia invaded Ukraine until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she/they) 07:17, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

		The Copyeditor's Barnstar
		Much appreciation for your dedicated and continued copy editing efforts on the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine article! Benjamin112 ☎ 01:47, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

A barnstar for your efforts

		The Current Events Barnstar
		Awarded for efforts in expanding and verifying articles related to the 2021–2022 Russo-Ukrainian crisis and 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine. Awarded by Cdjp1 (talk) 7 March 2022 (UTC)

CE

Hello. I just want to ask what CE means in your edits? Nintendoswitchfan (talk) 04:33, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

Copy editing, as sometimes I do not know how to summarize and copy editing is what I do most of the time, or at least I try to do. Davide King (talk) 16:28, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for March 15

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Fixed it thanks to Nintendoswitchfan. I thought that it was a redirect, my bad. Davide King (talk) 16:28, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

"1–2 finish" listed at Redirects for discussion

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The importarce of having an user like you

Hi mate. You are such a thorough user. Will you be helping me in Formula One Grand Prix articles for this season and for those to come as it has been the case so far? Island92 (talk) 16:13, 9 April 2022 (UTC)

Thanks to you, Island92. What are your thoughts on this? I see that you edited it (thank you for that) but never removed it, so I wonder what are your thoughts about it. Davide King (talk) 15:17, 13 April 2022 (UTC)

Personally, I agree with @SSSB:. There was no change in the Saudi Arabian Grand Prix entry list during the Grand Prix weekend, despite the fact Mick Schumacher was ruled out prior to the race due to qualifying crash. Thus that efn is useless for the section. The drivers and teams were the same as the season entry list with no additional stand-in drivers for the race for both Grands Prix (SAU & AUS), seeing that there was no one who replaced Mick in the race in Saudi Arabia.--Island92 (talk) 18:59, 13 April 2022 (UTC)

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Fixed it here. Davide King (talk) 12:46, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

"Russia invaded Ukraine" listed at Redirects for discussion

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typo under Mass killings under communist regimes

Back in December you made the following edit:

https://wiki.eso.workers.dev/w/index.php?title=Mass_killings_under_communist_regimes&diff=1060258181&oldid=1060251965

that includes this typo (notice the period):

"Karlsson describes Rummel's 61,911,000.121 estimate for the Soviet Union as being"

That typo is still in the current version. Not sure if 121 was was supposed to be a reference like [121] or what. —Megiddo1013 01:53, 7 May 2022 (UTC)

Also, it seems you made the same mistake a few weeks earlier here:

https://wiki.eso.workers.dev/w/index.php?title=Rudolph_Rummel&diff=1056086737&oldid=1055778913

—Megiddo1013 05:20, 7 May 2022 (UTC)

Yes, my bad. I forgot to remove the text's own reference number, thank you Megiddo1013 for noticing this. Davide King (talk) 11:50, 7 May 2022 (UTC)

discussion regarding mixed-market economy

Can you explain why did you created a redirect page mixed-market economy? See logs for it here [2] , I will look forward for your reply and would continue the discussion. Thanks Sneha04 ^💬 07:38, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

Sneha04: Sure, because it has been used in several pages and have a direct link rather than having to use [[Mixed economy|mixed-market economy]] or [[Mixed economy#Mix of free markets and state intervention|mixed-market economy]] . Davide King (talk) 09:26, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Copyeditor's Barnstar
	Thank you so much for your tireless work in copyediting the article for the Robb Elementary School shooting! At least, I assume that's what you must be doing. Unless "CE" stands for something else and I'm just not hip on the Wikipedia lingo. (Also, thanks for the thanks for my edits. I know no one but me can see them, but I appreciate it.) benǝʇᴉɯ 15:31, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

Groundswell group

If you are still interested in the article, I just found this. Doug Weller talk 10:08, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

Bare URL inline

Hi Davide

Please leave {{Bare URL inline}} inside the <ref> .. </ref> tags. Moving it to after the close ref (as you did here[3]) means that bots and tools don't recognise it, so it won't get removed even if the ref is filled. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 16:14, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

BrownHairedGirl — My bad! I thought the reverse was true. Thank you for making me aware of this now. Davide King (talk) 16:17, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

You're welcome! BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 16:20, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

May 2022

You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war according to the reverts you have made on Robb Elementary School shooting. This means that you are repeatedly changing content back to how you think it should be although other editors disagree. Users are expected to collaborate with others, to avoid editing disruptively, and to try to reach a consensus, rather than repeatedly undoing other users' edits once it is known that there is a disagreement.

In this case, a consensus has already been reached at Talk:Robb Elementary School shooting#Inclusion of conspiracy theories.

Points to note:

1. Edit warring is disruptive regardless of how many reverts you have made;
2. Do not edit war even if you believe you are right.

If you find yourself in an editing dispute, use the article's talk page to discuss controversial changes and work towards a version that represents consensus among editors. You can post a request for help at an appropriate noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, it may be appropriate to request temporary page protection. If you engage in an edit war, you may be blocked from editing. 48Pills (talk) 19:28, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

48Pills — very funny when you are the one who reverted twice now (first the long-standing consensus, and then to remove it all), and while it may be shorten, it is you who violated the consensus by completely removing it. As I said, on my edit summary, consensus was to not have a full section and to describe it briefly, while you removed it outright, all of it. Davide King (talk) 19:31, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

I do not know why you insist on adding everything that was in the originally reverted section?? 48Pills (talk) 19:48, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

48Pills — Because that is the status quo version that was there without issues. I only re-added a very short intro that was added by another user, who created a separate section about it, and so I reverted that but kept the addition. More to the point, why did you insist of removing literally everything from it rather than just the latest, very brief addition? Davide King (talk) 19:52, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

Would you consider becoming a New Page Reviewer?

Chart of the New Pages Patrol backlog for the past 6 months. () Hi Davide King, I've recently been looking for editors to invite to join the new page reviewing team, and after reviewing your editing history, I think you would be a good candidate. Reviewing/patrolling a page doesn't take much time but it requires a good understanding of Wikipedia policies and guidelines; the new page reviewing team needs help from experienced users like yourself. Would you please consider becoming a New Page Reviewer? Kindly read the tutorial before making your decision (if it looks daunting, don't worry, most pages are easy to review, and habits are quick to develop). If this looks like something that you can do, please consider joining us. If you choose to apply, you can drop an application over at WP:PERM/NPR. If you have questions, please feel free to drop a message on my talk page or at the reviewer's discussion board. Cheers, and hope to see you around, (t · c) buidhe 22:18, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

FYI: Keep an eye out for our little edit warrior

That huge table was added by him, and probably contains intentional errors. He is a newbie at en:, but was editwarring at fr: as well, and has been blocked this morning there as a sock puppet.[4] (delete after reading) KittenKlub (talk) 11:33, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

Overlinking/repeat linking

Please be careful not to overlink, as you did here. I had removed the overlinking but you added it back in that edit, so I had to remove the overlinking, again. With linking, you link once in the lead, and then once after the lead (tables and boxes are excluded). All of those things you linked are already linked in the History section. --JDC808 ♫ 11:10, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

My bad! Davide King (talk) 13:35, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

Planned Parenthood v Casey

I formatted the paragraph construction of your dissent text re: the Jackson opinion to match that of the preceding majority opinion and consolidated a note that was fragmented. Also, you deleted material relevant to "the law of the case" in the "See Also" section; that was restored. Your link to the 2022 abortion protests was offset (as it is not part of the "law of the case" but remains in the section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Avica1998 (talk • contribs) 22:50, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

I'll send you a list of anticipated changes later in the week. See direction from User:X-Editor for guidance. I'll cc him. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Avica1998 (talk • contribs) 23:04, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

Avica1998 (talk) 23:10, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

Suggestion on Dobbs

The part you just added about Alito sitting on Casey may be better in the bg where Barrett's stance on abortion is spelled out. It would take some wordsmithing to incorporate (i am on a phone keyboard so can't easily do it) --Masem (t) 13:34, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

Now that you mentioned it, it makes sense — thanks! Davide King (talk) 13:35, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

Suggestion correction

First off, much praise to your edits to various crime articles. I was wondering if you could rewrite this sentence on the interrogation section on the Lee Harvey Oswald article that was discussed on the talk page. The article says that Oswald told Holmes he was “working on an upper floor when the shooting occurred, then went downstairs”. Looking though Harry Holmes testimony, especially on page 306, it is clear what Holmes meant where Oswald said he encountered the officer: ...as I started to go out and see what it was all about, a police officer stopped me just before I got to the front door, and started to ask me some questions... Mr. BELIN. By the way, where did this policeman stop him when he was coming down the stairs at the Book Depository on the day of the shooting? Mr. HOLMES. He said it was in the vestibule. Mr. BELIN. He said he was in the vestibule? Mr. HOLMES. Or approaching the door to the vestibule. He was just coming, apparently, and I have never been in there myself. Apparently there is two sets of doors, and he had come out to this front part. Mr. BELIN. Did he state it was on what floor? Mr. HOLMES. First floor. The front entrance to the first floor. Mr. BELIN. Did he say anything about a Coca Cola or anything like that, if you remember? Mr. HOLMES. Seems like he said he was drinking a Coca Cola, standing there by the Coca Cola machine drinking a Coca Cola.

Holmes clarifies that Oswald was talking about encountering the officer at the vestibule on the first floor by the front entrance. Holmes describes two set of doors which were in the building vestibule (which were a front lobby between two set of doors). Based on this, the paragraph regarding Holmes on the “Police interrogation” section could be rewritten to say “Holmes (who attended the interrogation at the invitation of Captain Will Fritz) said that Oswald said he was at the first floor vestibule by the front entrance and wanted to see what the “commotion” was when he encountered an officer.” 62.254.8.232 (talk) 08:13, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

Bill Russell NBA player

Hello. I made adjustments to those categories because he did not lead the NBA in those categories in 1959-60 or other years. Go to Basketball Reference to confirm my changes. He didnt even come close to leading in field goal percentage or free throw percentage in 1959-60. Thank you for your time. If I overlooked something, let me know please. Have a good day.Theairportman33531 (talk) 15:13, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

Bolding is not used for that, it is used to highlight the highest career result for each statistic; there is even a table/legend above — the * with a bluish color is the one used for leading statistics. Davide King (talk) 15:21, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

My bad, you are absolutely correct. As a long-time Wikipedian I should have caught that immediately. The data in bold was his highs for his career, not the league high. We all make mistakes and I made one here. You have a good one.Theairportman33531 (talk) 22:47, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

It's okay! Thank you very much for your kidness :) Davide King (talk) 09:05, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

Reaching out from the foundation

Hi Davide -- I'm Francisco from WME. I'm reaching out in case you'd be interested in chatting with me for 30 or 45 minutes. I'm doing research around editing activities on different styles of Wiki articles. I've seen you around articles with vandalism and breaking news in them, so I'd like to ask about your methods. What do you think? If you're interested, please reach out to me at my contacts on my meta page linked above :) FranCapoArg (talk) 21:22, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

Oxford commas

Hello Davide. I've noticed some of your edits through my watchlist where you've added oxford commas (like example, example, and example) to articles that do not use them consistently already, I looked around and found WP:Oxford comma which says there's no preference if it's used or not, so it seems a bit unnecessary to change what style to use when it's subjective, similar to what variety of English is used on subjects unrelated to a certain variety or different era styles. I get it if it's your preference (I happen to generally not prefer them) but like I said, just doesn't seem necessary to me unless that's what's already mostly used on the article. Appreciate your otherwise very solid copy editing though. Is there a specific reason you add them? TylerBurden (talk) 08:26, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

TylerBurden, first of all, thanks for letting me known this. As English is not my first language, I've gone back and forth between using it and not using it. Sometimes articles I edit may not be very consistent, so perhaps I saw an Oxford comma and thought that was the style chosen for the article when it could just have an inconsistent article; of course, sometimes I may have also been wrong not noticing the article is consistently not using, and other times, depending on the style I favour on a given period, I may simply add it because in one period I may be favouring one style over the other. Since you let me know this, I've tried to be more careful about it and follow the article's chosen style or simply not adding it since I agree that it can be unnecessary. Again, thank you. :-) Davide King (talk) 14:14, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

That's understandable and no problem, yea best thing to do is to check what style is used consistently. Cheers. TylerBurden (talk) 05:57, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

Classicide

Hey, @Davide King! I recently proposed the article Classicide, to which you largely contributed, for the Meta-Wiki project Translation of the week. Thus, it would be really helpful if you could vote here for the proposal to succeed so that other Wikipedias are encouraged to translate it into their language. Thank you in advance! --Brunnaiz (talk) 17:56, 31 August 2022 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for September 9

An automated process has detected that when you recently edited Barbara Ehrenreich, you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page Inequality in the United States.

(Opt-out instructions.) --DPL bot (talk) 09:16, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

It was done on purpose. A primary topic may have been found a proper article be written. Davide King (talk) 11:52, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

ITN recognition for 2022 Swedish general election

On 19 September 2022, In the news was updated with an item that involved the article 2022 Swedish general election, which you updated. If you know of another recently created or updated article suitable for inclusion in ITN, please suggest it on the candidates page. Spencer^T•C 04:27, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Original Barnstar
	Davide King, Thanks for your great contributions on the page for the 2022 Italian general election on this busy election night. I'm headed to bed, but I have the strangest feeling you aren't. Your ongoing quick and accurate edits are noticed and appreciated. Thank you again! LocalWonk (talk) 22:46, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

ITN recognition for 2022 Italian general election

On 28 September 2022, In the news was updated with an item that involved the article 2022 Italian general election, which you updated. If you know of another recently created or updated article suitable for inclusion in ITN, please suggest it on the candidates page. PFHLai (talk) 03:55, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

Meloni

I somehow agree with the current lead, but, as someone interested in political scientist, i think it misses the peculiarites of Meloni's right-wing movement.

1)the fact that her party descends via three parties (PNF > MSI > AN >FdI) from Mussolini's fascist party.

2)the use of "patriot" to define herself and the militants of her party.

3)Her "eurorealism" or "soft euroscepticism". The concept of a "confederal Europe of sovereign nations" is the key proposal she has on the EU. It may be contradictory, but she repeates it over and over.

4)Her feminationalism or girlbossism. There are studies on these traits of Meloni, even in the English language.

5)Her opposition to neocolonialism, chiefly because she sees it as the cause of the European migrant crisis. This is a very peculiar trait of her in the right-wing criticism of immigration.

6)Her opposition to Covid restrictions (especially early on during the pandemic).

7)Her staunch criticism of China and communist regimes, she is in favor of leaving the Belt and Road initiative for example.

It's purely an academic interest of mine. These are the things i want to add with my edits. I think it's a reasonable, well-informed, non-POV upgrade.

Barjimoa (talk) 11:19, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

Thank you @Barjimoa for taking the time to writing me here. My main issue is that the lead is supposed to summarize and I think your edits fit the body more; I have since added the Taylor & Francis source and that she rejects the Eurosceptic label. We may add that she rejects this in the lead, as we do for 'far right' but I'm not sure how you would fit all the other stuff in the lead. They could be a good addition for the body, where we could divide it into "Domestic", "Foreign", and "Others" to discuss in great details but using summary style and no more than a few too long paragraphs. Davide King (talk) 11:24, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

I agree with you, but i think i can find a way to fit into the lead without going into details. And btw i think we should shorten the paragraph on her political carreer. Barjimoa (talk) 12:15, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

@Barjimoa, I think your latest edit were fine. Could you please help to also discuss this in summary style with a few refs in the body too? I believe there're a few more than decent refs about her feminism that we could expand and other stuff you've mentioned. Davide King (talk) 16:55, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

This is a study in english on Meloni's feminationalism. (https://air.unimi.it/retrieve/handle/2434/772998/1586260/A12Can%20feminism%20be%20right_OPEN.pdf). I wrote "right-wing feminism" as i thought it redirected to it , but now i see it redirects to conservative feminism, which i think it's problematic cause Meloni doesn't define herself as a classic feminist; in fact she denies it, altough she obviously took some feminist rethoric. So perhaps i should replace it with feminationalism, even though it's an academic term.Barjimoa (talk) 19:39, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

Thanks! Davide King (talk) 19:53, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

@Barjimoa, that "feminonationalism" is an academic term isn't necessarily a bad thing; the link should be enough for those not aware of it. I encourage you to expand it in the body, perhaps in a "Relationship with feminism" section, where we summarize all this you told me. Her criticism of China and neo-colonialism should also be briefly mentioned with sources at "Foreign policy" and "Immigration and multiculturalism". Davide King (talk) 20:05, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

) I just thought "described" gave them more credit than they were due, above that of pointing fingers and calling names :) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Unnecessarily (talk • contribs) 20:00, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

A barnstar for your efforts

		The Original Barnstar
		Awarded for your efforts in improving the article Giorgia Meloni. Awarded by Cdjp1 (talk) 7 October 2022 (UTC)

Cdjp1 (talk) 20:23, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

October 2022

You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war according to the reverts you have made on Giorgia Meloni. This means that you are repeatedly changing content back to how you think it should be although other editors disagree. Users are expected to collaborate with others, to avoid editing disruptively, and to try to reach a consensus, rather than repeatedly undoing other users' edits once it is known that there is a disagreement.

Points to note:

1. Edit warring is disruptive regardless of how many reverts you have made;
2. Do not edit war even if you believe you are right.

If you find yourself in an editing dispute, use the article's talk page to discuss controversial changes and work towards a version that represents consensus among editors. You can post a request for help at an appropriate noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, it may be appropriate to request temporary page protection. If you engage in an edit war, you may be blocked from editing. ― Blaze Wolf^Talk_{Blaze Wolf#6545} 01:03, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

Notice of edit warring noticeboard discussion

Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion involving you at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring regarding a possible violation of Wikipedia's policy on edit warring. Thank you. Est. 2021 (talk · contribs) 01:16, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

Comment on Giorgia Meloni

I think that trying to put yourself in other people's shoes is not just useful, but fundamental. You falsely accused me so many times, and I sincerely don't understand why, so after the edit war we had, I tried to understand you more, both as a person and as a wikipedian, giving a look at your userpage and edits, and I've been quite surprised. Reading your infobox amid the discussion, I immediately noticed we have some things in common: we're both Southern Italians, both born in '96, and we also share the irreligion, the same sexual orientation, similar political views and similar interests and - the most important - the same personality type. Being an INTP, I can understand what you feel like, what moves you, and I can assume good faith... but please, understand that you should not focus so much on your point of view. On Giorgia Meloni, you wrote "such like-minded right-wing politicians only complain about it and make a controversy when an asylum seeker or immigrant commits a crime or rape" and that totally looks like a prejudice against right-wing politicians. Being a leftist (socialist) myself, I can even understand your disapproval of her party, but accusing people based on just their political position is just not right. I hope you understand this. Thanks. Est. 2021 (talk · contribs) 16:45, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

@Est. 2021, I absolutely agree that "trying to put yourself in other people's shoes is not just useful, but fundamental", and again I apologize. I swear, it was in good faith and likely in the heat of the moment, I'm truly sorry about that, I got confused and it was my mistake, I hope you can forgive me and move on because I think this message of yours was really helpful, and I thank you for this. In response to, "understand that you should not focus so much on your point of view", remember that was the talk page and I didn't put that in the article, like I didn't put in the article something like this: "She only focus and complain about crimes committed by immigrant."

Said this, my comment came from what I observed and read from reliable sources; I also think I probably didn't explain myself good enough because you misunderstood the point because it wasn't my intention to accuse "people based on just their political position". It's very funny actually, I thought that you were on the right and were trying to whithewash her or moderate her too much that in my view is not supported by reliable sources, and that's probably why I may have been too aggressive towards you, and for this I apologize. For the record, I would do the same in the other direction where it would be too extreme, e.g. see my rejection of the IP asking that we call her 'fascist' as fact and also my disagreement with the IP on civil unions, as per reliable sources she did appear to moderate her stance on civil unions and pleadge to not abrogate the law. I don't discriminate on politics, I only want that our policies and reliable sources are respected and followed, so when someone appears to be whitewashing or make appear someone more extreme than they are, it pisses me off and upset me. As you said, whatever I personally think of her and her party, it doesn't matter.

What matters to me is that the article is in line with our policies and reliable sources, and in the case of Meloni that neither dismiss outright reliable sources discussing her neo-fascist or far-right roots, nor goes too extreme in the other way by calling her a fascist as a fact. I also dislike false balances and bothsideism, and those misudnerstanding NPOV to mean unbiased rather than properly reflect what reliable sources says and give prominence to each majority and minority viewpoints in accordance to the prevalance among reliable sources. In the case of Meloni, they do discuss and cite her neo-fascist or far-right roots, which is what our article does too, but they also don't call her fascist outright, which our article also doesn't do. But I'm even more confused now after you told me more about yourself because we're indeed similar in many ways and thus I don't understand our dispute. It wasn't a proposal to say, as fact, that Meloni only focus on immigrants committing a crime. I was just saying that some right-wing politicians and parties, in particular those more radical and right-wing populists, especially focus on crimes committed by immigrants.

How many times have we listened to television or read online from both sides of the spectrum such accusses to each other, and I've listened and read to politicians and reliable sources making the same point that some on the right focus too much on the crime if it was committed by an immigrant, just like some on the left and centre may also focus too much on something; I didn't mean to state that as fact or even add it to the article, I just thought that was the connection the sources did and that's why I structured it that way. Look in the United States how many fakes new came from the far right and 4-chan pushing things like false flags antifa operations or that something was committed by a black person or an immigrant, when neither was true, but some right-wing politicians and commentators believed them because they especially focus on crimes committed for example by immigrants. That's what I mean, like this is something that really triggers some on the right, and of course there're things that trigger those on the left or on the centre, e.g. I've heard or read some on the right say that the left only cares about minorities, or that if a crime was committed by a white person, they would focus much more than if it was committed by a minority. I'm not sure I explained what I meant in a good way but I hope you get what I'm saying.

Of course, I agree with you that it shouldn't matter whether something, whether it was a crime or a rape, was committed by a native or an immigrant, I'd condemn it anyway and I wish everyone would do so and condemn it regardless. Unfortunately, in real life this isn't always what happened (at least to me) and that was what I was referring to and talking about; it was more in general, a generalization (perhaps too much), rather than limited to Meloni and the like. Davide King (talk) 17:50, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

The Workers' Barnstar

		The Workers' Barnstar
		This user has shown great editing skills in improving articles related to Communism or Socialism.
		this WikiAward was given to Davide King by Cdjp1 (talk) on 14 October 2022 (UTC)

Cdjp1 (talk) 14:00, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

Fonti inaffidabili

Utente Davide, le fonti riguardo Giorgia Meloni già stanno dopo il mio contributo perchè io ho eliminato due fonti che risultano inaffidabili e dichiaranti il falso, invece nella versione che ti ostini a inserire si dichiara che Meloni dichiarò il falso riguardo il titolo di studio e questa è una schifosissima fandonia supportata da fonti inventate da giornalisti prezzolati da politicanti di fazioni avverse! Forza bruta (talk) 06:15, 16 October 2022 (UTC)

@Forza bruta, cosa c'è di falso esattamente in quelle due fonti? "Ricapitolando: non è vero che Meloni ha frequentato un liceo linguistico, come ha ammesso lei stessa in altre circostanze. Ha però frequentato un istituto tecnico superiore, con indirizzo linguistico." Se il problema è "This created a controversy about whether she lied about her diploma", bastava modificarlo leggermente senza implicare che abbia mentito, piuttosto che togliere fonti come hai fatto tu. Davide King (talk) 06:24, 16 October 2022 (UTC)

non bisogna scrivere un articolo sul titolo di studio che ha Meloni: le fonti che stanno nella mia versione sono sufficienti e le due fonti rimosse da me sono mendaci. Adesso devo spegnere il computer, ciao--Forza bruta (talk) 06:29, 16 October 2022 (UTC)

ITN recognition for 2022 Brazilian general election

On 31 October 2022, In the news was updated with an item that involved the article 2022 Brazilian general election, which you updated. If you know of another recently created or updated article suitable for inclusion in ITN, please suggest it on the candidates page. El_C 04:45, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

Notice of edit warring noticeboard discussion 2

Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion involving you at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring regarding a possible violation of Wikipedia's policy on edit warring. The thread is Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring#User:Davide_King reported by User:Triggerhippie4 (Result: ). Thank you. Triggerhippie4 (talk) 01:46, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

Hello David King. You've been warned for edit warring at 2022 Israeli legislative election per the outcome of the AN3 complaint. Let me know if you have any questions. Thank you, EdJohnston (talk) 18:28, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

2022 Israeli legislative election is covered by discretionary sanctions

This is a standard message to notify contributors about an administrative ruling in effect. It does not imply that there are any issues with your contributions to date.

You have shown interest in the Arab–Israeli conflict. Due to past disruption in this topic area, a more stringent set of rules called discretionary sanctions is in effect. Any administrator may impose sanctions on editors who do not strictly follow Wikipedia's policies, or the page-specific restrictions, when making edits related to the topic.

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EdJohnston (talk) 18:23, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

Plip!

Plip!

A friendly trout for this edit, which, in removing the markup <section end=lead />, caused four sub-articles to transclude the entirety of the main article for 10 months. MediaWiki should probably throw an error in that sort of case, but apparently it doesn't, and apparently no one noticed till me! So, enjoy the free fish. :) -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 11:36, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

My bad, @Tamzin! As you wrote, I didn't get any error and everything looked fine, so I didn't think much about it :D

Anyway, this edit also apparently removed <section end=lead /><section begin=links /> I don't know if that changed anything or made it worse.

Thank you for adding the hidden note to not remove them. Davide King (talk) 13:53, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

Ah, so perhaps it was re-added sometime after your removal; I only landed on you as the "culprit" through WikiBlame, but it searches back-to-front, I think. The whole situation with splitting those lists seems to still need some work. The "links" part of the section transclusion doesn't seem to have ever worked, leading to harvref errors on some pages... I'll try to get to sorting that out soon. -- Tamzin^{[cetacean needed]} (she|they|xe) 13:57, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

Danish People's Party

I've thought that you might be interested in this discussion that we are having right now on Danish People's Party talk page. It's about which ideologies should be included in its infobox. Cheers, Vacant0 (talk) 12:08, 26 November 2022 (UTC)

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2022 elections

Hello, I was wondering why you keep on removing the link to the 1934 elections that I added in the lede. You seem really insistent about it but I don’t know of any policy that suggests it shouldn’t be in there. Best, Cpotisch (talk) 23:27, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

@Cpotisch, I think our policies are clear that our links must be ... well, clear. I know it may sounds obvious we are linking to the election results rather than the year but we should make it clear; one link was about the midterm, another was about the gubernatorial elections, and it was not clear from text by just linking the year where the reader would be linked. Then there is also the issue of overlinking and consistency. In fact, all these links are properly linked in the body. If we're going to pipe a link, it's better to just unlink it to avoid overlinking and linking it later either through the main link or redirect. Davide King (talk) 13:00, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

I still don’t really get where you’re coming Freon. The role of the lede is to emphasize noteworthy facts from the body, and plenty of other elections are already linked in the lede, so I don’t see why it’s problematic to include it. Furthermore, you removed the 1934 links even when I only linked to the midterm (and not also the gov elections). Freon where I stand, the lede is clearly heavily highlighting how historically unprecedented this year was, so I don’t think it is excessive to link to 1934, especially considering that there are like three different ways that that election was the last historical precedent for this one. Cpotisch (talk) 22:13, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

Again, see WP:OVERLINKING. That other article do the same mistakes, it is not really a good argument. "First of all, keep links as simple as possible ... Unnecessary piping makes the wikitext harder to read ... Keep piped links as transparent as possible" (WP:NOPIPE). Finally, we literally have Template:United States elections at the end where every election is already linked. As I wrote, if we must link them, we must at least link them properly. Davide King (talk) 22:41, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

You still haven't explained how I haven't been "link[ing] them properly", though, or why it isn't "simple" enough for your tastes. I still don't really understand what you're taking issue with, here. Cpotisch (talk) 15:27, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

It's not my "tastes" [sic], it's our rules, which says "keep links as simple as possible ... Unnecessary piping makes the wikitext harder to read ... Keep piped links as transparent as possible."

Your version:

• 2022 is the first midterm since [[1934 United States elections|1934]] in which the president's party did not lose control of a single state legislative chamber. This also marked the first midterm since 1934 in which Democrats made a net gain of governorships under a Democratic president, and the first since [[1986 United States gubernatorial elections|1986]] in which either party gained governorships while holding the presidency.

Proper linking:

• 2022 is the first midterm since the [[1934 U.S. elections]] in which the president's party did not lose control of a single state legislative chamber. This also marked the first midterm since 1934 in which Democrats made a net gain of governorships under a Democratic president, and the first since the [[1986 U.S. elections]] in which either party gained governorships while holding the presidency.

Alternative:

• ... since the [[1986 U.S. gubernatorial elections]] in which either party made gains while holding the presidency.

This is proper linking, and makes it clear that we're linking to 1934 United States elections and 1986 United States elections/1986 United States gubernatorial elections rather than 1934/1934 in the United States or 1986/1986 in the United States. Davide King (talk) 15:50, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

Merry Christmas!

Hello Davide King : Enjoy the holiday season and winter solstice if it's occurring in your area of the world, and thanks for your work to maintain, improve and expand Wikipedia. Cheers, --A.S. Brown (talk) 04:13, 25 December 2022 (UTC)

Happy New Year, Davide King!

Happy New Year!

Davide King,
Have a prosperous, productive and enjoyable New Year, and thanks for your contributions to Wikipedia.
Mann Mann (talk) 04:02, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

   Send New Year cheer by adding {{subst:Happy New Year fireworks}} to user talk pages.

Happy New Year, Davide King!

Happy New Year!

Davide King,
Have a prosperous, productive and enjoyable New Year, and thanks for your contributions to Wikipedia. See this for background context.
— Moops ^⋠T⋡ 18:31, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

   Send New Year cheer by adding {{subst:Happy New Year fireworks}} to user talk pages.

— Moops ^⋠T⋡ 18:31, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

About edit summaries

Davide King, you're a long term contributor whose contributions I respect, but could you please up your game on the use of edit summaries, to help your fellow editors? Your edit summary usage stats are impeccable, and list you as 100% usage, but that is misleading. Checking your last 100 contributions, 97% of them are 'ce', and it looks like it goes way back beyond just those. This is no better than no edit summary at all. Some examples of how this could be improved:

• rev. 1134229334 at LGBT – arguably *is* ce, but unfortunately, the diff program displays a giant mess and it's really hard to see the changes. At first glance, it looks like you added and deleted massive amounts of material, and it takes quite some time to see what you actually did. A better edit summary might be: "added and dropped some paragraph breaks; no change to content." That alone would've saved me some time.
• rev. 1134430535 at Christian socialism – better is " /* Facts */ Per [[WP:NOPIPE]]."
• rev. 1134424781 at Workplace Religious Freedom Act – , honestly, after studying the diff for a while, I still have no idea; the diff program doesn't make it easy, and I gave up trying to figure out what changed here. Help!
• rev. 1134424131 at Christian socialism – not 'ce'; better would be: " /* 21st century */ more narrowly targeted wikilink"
• rev. 1134425321 at Employment Division v. Smith – better is "No punct. between refs; improve ref."
• rev. 1134422702 at Vladimir Herzog – better is "Per WP:NOPIPE."
• rev. 1134422099 at List of ROH World Tag Team Champions – better is "/* top */ Tag for AE and mdy dates."

Please can you use descriptive summaries going forward? Thanks for everything you do for the project. Mathglot (talk) 01:38, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

@Mathglot, so sorry about that! Now that you gave me some examples, it's baffling that I didn't think using those edit summaries and how they didn't come up in my mind when I first did them (when I had them in my mind and were very short, I used to literally show differences, e.g. between words, or show what I added) — if I had probably thought for a few more second, I could have come up with a proper summary but I simply assumed that it was still some form of copy editing (e.g. sometimes I used "ce wl[s]"), or that it would be easily to understand from reviewing diffs, but you're right that sometimes it looks confusing, even though I didn't remove anything and just moved or better positioned sentences and/or paragraphs to improve readability and avoid too short and too long paragraphs. I will try to be more careful on this. For example, I would now summarize 1134424781 as "better arranged paragraphs to avoid having a few of them with just a sentence." I thought "ce" would do the trick but I realize now that this is one of the example where it isn't clear what exactly I edited (I don't know why this happens and if it can be improved). Davide King (talk) 11:36, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

Thanks so much for this Davide, and happy editing! Mathglot (talk) 03:30, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

Handy tip: one way I helped "train myself" to always use them, is I set set my preferences to remind me when I forget. To do this, go to Preferences > Editing, then under bold heading Editor, check the box for 'Prompt me when entering a blank edit summary'. If you forget, it will give you another chance. If you really want to save with no summary, just click the 'Publish' button a second time, and you're done. HTH, Mathglot (talk) 02:48, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

Bruce Straley

Hey, as I know that your edits are fine, but not all edits are part of criticism of TLOU HBO series. CastJared (talk) 08:53, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

DYK for 2023 Speaker of the United States House of Representatives election

On 21 January 2023, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article 2023 Speaker of the United States House of Representatives election, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that the January 2023 election of the Speaker of the United States House of Representatives was the longest speaker election since December 1859 – February 1860? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/2023 Speaker of the United States House of Representatives election. You are welcome to check how many pageviews the nominated article or articles got while on the front page (here's how, 2023 Speaker of the United States House of Representatives election), and the hook may be added to the statistics page after its run on the Main Page has completed. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

-- RoySmith (talk) 12:02, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

Correct?

Hi, is my edit correct? https://wiki.eso.workers.dev/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/1134988471 5.91.25.107 (talk) 14:41, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

It's more useful to sort "See also" sections by relevance, not alphabetically

I recently re-read the article Keynesian beauty contest and the ordering of the "See also" section surprised me so much that I had to check if someone intentionally made it worse recently and that was in fact the case with this edit, which I reverted

https://wiki.eso.workers.dev/w/index.php?title=Keynesian_beauty_contest&diff=prev&oldid=1105067249&diffmode=source

If you read the article, it should be obvious why "Tactical voting" which is basically the same concept is more relevant than any other things in the list.

What is the point of alphabetically sorting "See also"? This is not a dictionary. People aren't searching the See also section to check if some specific article they already know the name of is listed, they're reading it to find out which other concepts are related to the article, so the most relevant article should be the first thing they read. Also since people won't always read the entire list it makes more sense to have the first few things they might read be the most relevant.

I can understand doing this for articles that have tons of items in "See also" and where there's not an obvious sorting of relevance/importance, but in this case sorting it alphabetically just removes useful information for no gain. Akeosnhaoe (talk) 04:42, 7 February 2023 (UTC)

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I have sent you a note about a page you started

Hello, Davide King. Thank you for your work on Gianluigi Gabetti. User:Onel5969, while examining this page as a part of our page curation process, had the following comments:

Very nice job on the article, keep up the good work.

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Brackets, ellipses

Greetings. MOS:ELLIPSIS allows square brackets around an ellipsis to make clear that it isn't original to the material being quoted. My thoughts are that it's much clearer to use brackets, which is why I reverted your recent edit. Thanks. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 19:03, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

@Sangdeboeuf, well, it says occasionally, not it must be preferred, and the case in which you reverted doesn't fit, since it's a matter of preference; however, you cited MOS:ELLIPSIS, which says: "Occasionally, square brackets are placed around an ellipsis to make clear that it isn't original to the material being quoted, for example if the quoted passage itself contains an ellipsis (She retorted: "How do I feel? How do you think I ... This is too much! [...] Take me home!"). As far as I know, this is not the case in the quotes I edited. So your revert is not really based on policy, and it's just you that prefers the use of square brackets, which ironically enough was what I used to do too for elipsis, then I read the MoS part about it and thought it was preferred to use ... rather than [...] so I don't know if that changed? Either way, my reading of the policy is that ... is to be preferred over [...], which must be reduced to being used occasionally and only to make clear that it isn't original to the material being quoted (e.g. "She attended [secondary] school]"), and if the quoted passage itself contains an ellipsis, which does not appear to be the case, or I may add if the source itself uses [...] Davide King (talk) 19:31, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

John Elkann

Hello @Davide King, yesterday I wrote on John Elkann talk page about the Sports section and the last paragraph in the Early life section. As you wrote that content, I'd like to have your perspective. Can you please have a look? Thank you! :) Alucespenta84 (talk) 10:38, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

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communist state

Great work on the communist state article! :) TheUzbek (talk) 21:42, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

I have, so that you know, re-structured the communist state article to clarify specifically the unitary state power of the legislatures and how a ruling communist party monopolises state power. I think the best way to improve the article is to merge the "Ruling party" section with the legislature since the ruling party has to legitimate power without a majority in the legislature. A section should also be written about how the ruling party, through its control of the legislatures, organises election that re-produces a majority in it. I have also changed the heading "Political system" to "The state system of unitary state power" since, in communist systems state system also encompasses the economic system.

I would think a good structure would be:

1. The state system of unitary state power
   1. Legislatures as the highest organ of state power
      1. Unitary state power principle
      2. Communist party control of legislature
      3. Representativity and functions
   2. Government as the highest administrative agency of state power
      1. Clarify that the government are utterly subservient to the legislatures (and through the legislature, the Party)
   3. Judicial organs
      1. clarify that these organs are utterly subservient to the legislatures (and through the legislature, the Party)
   4. Military
      1. OK sections, but fails to mention that the legislature elects the leading state authority of the armed forces.
   5. Head of state and supervisory institutions
      1. Missing.

Do you agree? Do you want to help? --TheUzbek (talk) 08:57, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

Sri Lanka Podujana Peramuna

Someone is engaging in a edit war on this page. : Before https://wiki.eso.workers.dev/w/index.php?title=Sri_Lanka_Podujana_Peramuna&oldid=1098047078 After https://wiki.eso.workers.dev/w/index.php?title=Sri_Lanka_Podujana_Peramuna&oldid=1162608279 proof https://wiki.eso.workers.dev/w/index.php?title=Sri_Lanka_Podujana_Peramuna&diff=prev&oldid=1162608279 — Preceding unsigned comment added by MMQ735 (talk • contribs) 05:40, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

Invitation

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German National People's Party

This may sound like an ask, but if you have time, do you think you could move the ideologies into their own section? ValenciaThunderbolt (talk) 17:32, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

2023 Spanish government formation

I mean, can you, for a moment, take the time to stop pressing the "edit" + "publish" buttons and read something of what I am telling you? You keep bashing your head against the wall of issues that were already solved both in GA reviews and in long discussions on formatting and manual of style through a wide number of articles, yet you keep enforcing (at many times incorrect) edits for no reason! (You mention policies that don't actually support your claims). Impru20^talk 22:55, 30 July 2023 (UTC)

And it's curious because we can actually reach good compromises like this one! Impru20^talk 23:03, 30 July 2023 (UTC)

"Neo-communism" listed at Redirects for discussion

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Talk:Javier Milei

The article about Javier Milei is experiencing vandalism by political activists, and in particular by user Uniru288 as of 2023-08-15. Ref: https://wiki.eso.workers.dev/w/index.php?title=Javier_Milei&action=history. As you (Davide King) are actively moderating it, and in a non-biased way, this should be discussed.

The article as a whole is quite misleading, and does not highlight his political views, but rather highlighting out of context misrepresentations. It is filled with political bias, and should remain neutral, free from slander, and provide a balanced point of view. You further claim that citations from media with a political bias are reliable secondary sources about a political figure they disagree with. Then you claim that primary sources must be used with care.

Lets make sure we understand each other.

According to Wikipedia guidelines, primary sources are encouraged for citations, especially when making direct quotations, which the article is full of. Secondary sources does not mean "good" or "reliable", it depends what type of source it is. Political opposition is not a reliable source for a political article. Media outlets are typically referencing other media articles, so the original article should be used, which is in most cases from Argentinian media. This can not be used as factual information, and represented as such. It is not a problem to include references from media, the problem is to claim these being factual, and without providing any trustworthy reference. https://wiki.eso.workers.dev/wiki/Wikipedia:Identifying_and_using_primary_sources

Please note that the article makes claims that in many cases are both incorrect and misleading. Lets list a short sample. E.g.,

---

"Milei is a follower of the ex-Brazilian president Jair Bolsonaro and the ex-United States president Donald Trump.[59]"

This is false, Milei does not have any political or personal affiliation with either, and has explicitly stated a neutral point of view towards them. He is in general positive towards politicians that are anti-communist, but its misleading to expand this claim that he is a follower of Trump or Bolsonaro.

---

"Several of Milei's political positions have caused controversy,[21] such as ... the rejection of sexual education in schools,[23]" "He relies on Cultural Marxism to oppose ... sexual education in schools;[23] he compared public education to brainwashing.[70]"

This is a misrepresentation. His claim is that certain classes in education is being used for indoctrination of political ideology. There are numerous reports of that from parents etc, and is not a conspiracy theory. I can provide sources if you think its necessary.

---

Labels such as "far-right", "right-wing", "populist", "ultraconservative" etc does not belong in a Wikipedia article as fact. These are non-descriptive labels used as slander, and does not provide a neutral description of actual viewpoints. At best this can be cited as a reference, stating who are using such labels.

---

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.69.198.165 (talk) 19:31, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

RE: this

I refer to the Wikipedia guidelines here; https://wiki.eso.workers.dev/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view

Articles should not state things as facts, when they are opinions. Even if they are the opinions of several secondary sources, they should be presented as such.

This is not about using Wikipedia to right great wrongs, it is about the article being used for political activism. Articles should remain neutral.

There is no problem using media articles, but there is a big problem when they are being presented as fact. Your argument is that because something was written by a secondary source, it is automatically a fact and can be stated as such. I did not claim that we should trust what someone says, I claimed you can not take misrepresentations from a media article, and rewrite them in Wikipedia as factual. You can use them using standard journalist practice with "according to", "reported by" or similar wording, and strive to make the Wikipedia representation of the source neutral.

I also did not say media is inherently biased in an irrational and unreasonable way, this is not a correct interpretation of my critique. The readers of a Wikipedia article should be presented with a neutral article, and make their own judgements. They do not need someone to make interpretations for them and rewriting media articles as facts.

Finally, the claim is also that the citations fail verification. The two examples above are from the very same articles used as sources.

1. The Wikipedia article claims he is a follower/supporter of Trump and Bolsonaro, and uses a media article as evidence. This is not correct, the very same media article explicitly quotes Milei as having a neutral view of them. This appears to me like the very definition of misuse. You can use a media article, stating that such media has reported him as supporting Trump/Bolsonaro, but this is not even what is written in the article, is is an interpretation of the article with a political bias. The original interview he did is with the Brazilian O Globo, where they asked if his project was inspired by Trump and Bolsonaro, and his response was "Everyone who is against socialism or communism is on the side I am on" (Todos los que estuvieran contra el socialismo o el comunismo están del lado en el que estoy), and "My alignment with Trump and Bolsonaro is almost natural" (Mi alineamiento con Trump y Bolsonaro es casi natural).

2. The Wikipedia article further claims he opposes sexual education in schools, using another media article as evidence. This is not correct, the article provides quotes from Milei, where he states that "Educación Sexual Integral" is being used for political activism, and therefore will cancel it. The source does not support the claim he is against sexual education in schools.

The Wikipedia article is filled with this type of misuse, especially because its all being presented as fact. The amount of work required to correct this article is quite large, especially with the constant vandalism happening. This particular person is controversial, very critical of socialism and communism, and is thus experiencing significant attack from these kind of political activists. This kind of political activism does not belong on Wikipedia. This is the very reason things needs to be written with caution, making it clear for the reader which things are facts, which things are opinions etc. 193.69.198.165 (talk) 09:27, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

It appears we are more or less in agreement regarding Wikipedia guidelines, and I agree with most of your comments, I will reply where i see deviation;

The Wikipedia article did state "is a ...", "supports ..." as factual claims in the recent edits the last couple of days, but its improving. I would prefer to be more explicit about who are using the various terms, in particular in this situation because the Argentinian news have been actively used against him in the political campaign (which are often the sources used directly in the Wikipedia article, or the sources that international sources are using), but i can concede on this point since it may not apply generally to Wikipedia. Describing someone as a "radical", "far", "ultra", does not seem appropriate for a political candidate with the most amount of votes in an election (>30% of the voting population), mainstream would be an equally descriptive word (which is why i say using these terms are non-descriptive and slander), but it is correct that he has been called those things by many secondary sources, and there is no problem stating that.

Regarding "neutral" vs "natural", this is my mistake, i will try to explain. My interpretation of the whole paragraph reads as they are united in support against communism, not that he supports them. I read "neutral" by mistake since they come from very different political philosophies, but they do share a common theme which is anti-communist which makes it easy to conflate them. This point is lost in the Wikipedia article, and focuses exclusively on associating him with national conservatives, which is not part of his political philosophy.

Regarding "Educación Sexual Integral", there are important details lost here. It is not an opposition to sexual education, he is opposed to socialism and communism, which he believes is being taught in these classes. His opposition has nothing to do with sexual education itself, it is that the state decides what should be taught in these classes he opposes, because in this case he believes the state in Argentina is using it for indoctrinating children with their political agenda. Removing a state controlled sexual education class will solve this problem, and schools would be free to define their own curriculum for sexual education. I believe the source states this as well.

The theme across all these are anti-communist, which is not really explained in the article. Instead the angle implies he is an extremist, national conservative, who will stage a coup, and supports rape. While it is not explicitly written this way, I oppose this style of writing, as it does not provide a neutral description of what he said or what his policies are. This is cherry-picking very particular things, without providing context, in order to increase the negativity and controversy. The sources in question are basing their commentary on what he said, but in many references his actual words are not quoted or available, these should be available in the used sources in order to limit the chinese whispers problem.

Another strange addition is this "Cultural Marxism conspiracy theory" reference. Milei uses Cultural Marxism frequently, against socialist and communist activism in society. He is an outspoken anti-communist, obviously he opposes communist ideas, and the promotion of communist ideas. Labeling that as a conspiracy theory seems absurd. The Wikipedia article about the "Cultural Marxism conspiracy theory" states things like it being antisemitic, which makes no sense since Milei is supportive of Jews. Anyway, this is another discussion entirely, but socialist and communist activism can not be called a conspiracy theory. The reference in question does not support the claim that he supports a "Cultural Marxism conspiracy theory" as described on Wikipedia, only that he uses the term "Cultural Marxism". He signed the Madrid Charter, which forms an opposition to groups such as the São Paulo Forum and the Puebla Group. The existence of these groups can not be called a conspiracy theory. How is this level of distortion even handled on Wikipedia? 193.69.198.165 (talk) 16:06, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

Ok great, we are converging towards something, so that is good. I will again comment on the deviations;

Milei's political background comes from philosophers like Rothbard, Mises, Hayek etc. He has quotes them on many occasions. He has a clear philosophical viewpoint, and is very consistent with it. He has also written several books related to this and his work as an economy professor. This is in contrast to politicians like Trump and Bolsonaro, which has no clear philosophical foundation. In addition, he is an Argentinian catholic, so being labeled as a conservative seems to follow. This mix seems to confuse people, but there are big fundamental differences between these politicians. There are also many overlaps, and agreements between them on many policies, but this is only when their opinions matches those of his philosophy. This why i find it very odd to state that he "supports them". Regardless, we can stick with secondary source commentary.

Anti-communist should not be interpreted as political affiliation with openly declared communist parties, but a philosophical one. Socialist/communist ideology, including Marxism, post-Marxism, modern day socialism and derviatives etc, is what is being referred to. At the foundation socialism/communism ideas does not believe in individual property rights, and out from that springs a wide range of consequences in economic and social policy. The essence here is the fundament which all the ideologies are built on. This is probably not clear in layman terms, but its not intended as a superficial phrase, it refers to deep philosophical disagreements.

Your question, "What does sexual education have to do with socialism and communism?", is the right one. At a glance i agree that this seems absurd. I can try to explain where this is coming from. The class in Argentina is "integral", it includes a range of social education topics, which is from Mileis point of view unrelated to sexual education and from his point of view derivatives of communist/socialist ideology. It is also mandatory, for public and private schools, and included in several other classes "integral" as part of e.g. english education. This may appear like a conspiracy theory, but i would call it fundamental disagreements on a philosophical level. If a person disagrees with what is being taught (at a deep fundamental philosophical level), and this is enforced by law on all kids in a country, it seems natural for this person to talk about an ideological agenda being forced upon people. He uses terms like Cultural Marxism to label this, correctly or incorrectly used.

You can read the ESI curriculum online if you like; https://www.argentina.gob.ar/educacion/esi

The topic of debate would be if the ESI curriculum is related to post-Marxism, Cultural Marxism or similar, I'm not sure the exact phrase he used. But it is Mileis opinion that it is, but this is a topic of debate of its own. This point of view is not represented.

The main other topic seems to be about abortion and generally about wording/phrasing. He is against abortion, there is no dispute here, but there are many ways of presenting this. His viewpoint is very clear again, he considers abortion to be murder, regardles of the situation of which it occurs. Even in the case he does support abortion, which is to protect the mothers life, he would still consider it murder. This is not an uncommon opinion in Argentina, because the country has deep catholic roots. My point is, it does not appear like a neutral presentation to use the cherry-picked example of rape, as this applies to everyone who believes that life starts at conception and the wording seems biased towards those who support abortion. His comments can ofcourse be quoted, because he said so explicitly, when he was asked explicitly, but from my perspective it appears cherry-picked. A more moderate phrasing could be "He belives abortion is murder, regardless of circumstance, including cases of rape." With that being said, I'm not familiar with him having any plans of changing abortion laws, he does not believe in state regulation. These are his private personal opinions, but I might be wrong. 193.69.198.165 (talk) 22:41, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

I forgot to comment on the "left" terminology specifically. Personally i try to avoid using such terms, since they are non-descriptive. ~100 years ago, the "left" was the liberals, and the "right" was the conservatives. These days, everything seems to be either left, or far-right, and who knows what it even means. It "dumbs down" the discourse to a polarization between two oppositions, when reality is far more complex. I don't have a problem with citing that sources are using these terms, but there are many sources and many terms being used, so its unclear what decides which ones should be used.

Milei's opposition is against communist/socialist fundamentals, "left" could mean anything. In the case of the São Paulo Forum, the founders are Lula da Silva and Fidel Castro, which are explicitly socialist and communist. Not sure why its controversial or a conspiracy theory to state that this forum is being used to promote socialist and communist ideologies, when its created for this very purpose? Seems like a straw man tactic? The Madrid Forum is created as an opposition, because they believe these ideas are dangerous. There has been a long and violent conflict with communism in South America since the late 1920ies or 1930ies. There are many communists and socialists who are promoting their ideology in South America today, as everyone else are. 193.69.198.165 (talk) 09:18, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

As expected, the anti abortion policies seems to be fabrications. The 3 sources where this is mentioned are contradicted by chequeado. I can not find any primary source where he states he will end legal abortion, its quite the opposite. The most recent one, which is barely a week old, he directly refutes it. Allowing the majority to decide means his political agenda is neutral, but he will hold a referendum because the law was introduced without one. Whatever his personal opinions may be on this matter, seems unrelated to his political program - besides allowing the majority to decide what they want. 193.69.198.165 (talk) 22:29, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

Ref your comments in the edits of the article;

• Then you removed The Economist due to subscription but add El Pais that also requires subscription to support the claim reliable sources struggle to define his views (which is contradicted by the pletefhora of sources calling him far-right or right-wing populist...), when that same source says he emodied South America Trumpian politics. It doesn't contradict the claim that he is far-right. It even further confirms his anti-abortion views...
• Juan Ramón Rallo is an economist (incidentally sharing Milei's views...), not a political scientist. And it is an opinion piece, the same reason for which the IP instead removed The WaPo article that you didn't like... Unlike Rallo, the WaPo article, even if an opinion piece, reflected the consensus of reliable sources about social issues. Additionaly, several of the sources used by the IP are not considered reliable for facts (e.g. The American Conservative), so they cannot be used as you did
• sorry IP but many of your edits were problematic, particularly removal of sourced content (I've read The Economist behind paywall and it supported what it said, I'll add the archive-url that shows it in full); also the para about controversies is about controversial positions; for example, his support for gender identify freedom isn't controversial, the other positions are; in general ce and reword to distinguish between controversial position and those that causes confusions

The opinion piece from The Economist was removed because it was in a section that had nothing to do with social issues, it was also behind a paywall which made it impossible to verify. The sentence also makes statements of facts, when its an opinion article. I.e. it stated as fact: "Many of the people drawn in by Milei are right-wingers who are attracted to his opposition to government policies, such as legalizing abortion and creating a quota for trans people in government jobs". It also does not add anything to the article, as these topics have already been covered in the article.

On the other hand, the opinion piece that was added from Juan Ramón Rallo, and the two conservative media articles were stated as criticisms (opinions), not facts. Juan Ramón Rallo is a well renown academic and author in the same field as Milei (economic and political), so he happens to know these topics very well. You can't claim that only the people who disagree with Milei can be included in the article?

Regarding El Pais, it was not behind a paywall for me, so i guess this depends on the location of the reader? The article clearly state his policies as difficult to classify. See the Javier Milei's Talk page for further discussions on that topic. 193.69.198.165 (talk) 16:00, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Napoleone Colajanni

Thanks for your review/edit of the article. The flow is better now and your updates of the wikilinks quite useful. - DonCalo (talk) 17:10, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

Madrid Forum

Ref this

This edit is actually not supported in the sources. The sources referenced do not state leftist organizations, but "communist" or "extreme left". Can you explain? 193.69.198.165 (talk) 21:46, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

How do I add…

How do I add the "This is a Wikipedia user page. […] Be aware that the page may be outdated and that the user whom this page is about may have no personal affiliation with any site other than Wikipedia. The original page is located at […]" template to my user page(s)?
Also, thanks for thanking me on that one edit. Rava77 (talk) 10:28, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

@Rava77, try using Template:User page mini. I hope that helps, even I do not remember how I exactly I did because I did not find the template on my page but it should be that one. Davide King (talk) 15:51, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, I try. (talk) 16:30, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

I tried, and it works, but only on :en: - no such luck on de.wikipedia. Hopefully there is a template with a different name. (I already asked that on de.wikipedia.org ) --Rava77 (talk) 16:43, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

The template also not works on commons.wikimedia.org --Rava77 (talk) 17:04, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

:( Davide King (talk) 17:08, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Radical right and libertarianism

@Davide King After the discussion made on Javier Milei talk page, I added clarifications on the libertarianism article:

https://wiki.eso.workers.dev/w/index.php?title=Libertarianism&diff=prev&oldid=1173262285 93.45.229.98 (talk) 09:32, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

@93.45.229.98, thank you, that was a good edit. If you were a registrated user, I would have "thanked" for them. :-) Davide King (talk) 13:16, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Notice of neutral point of view noticeboard discussion

There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. The discussion is about the topic Javier Milei. Thank you. Pedantic Aristotle (talk) 14:14, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

Hello, Davide King. You have new messages at Talk:Javier_Milei#Main_summary_of_Milei%E2%80%99s_page_severely_undue.
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~~~~ Pedantic Aristotle (talk) 13:56, 6 September 2023 (UTC)

Discussion invitation: Javier Milei

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ITN recognition for Giorgio Napolitano

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Thank you for defending me against the Nazis

I've been gaslit so much lately after having to defend my removal of a blogspot link promoting the butcher of riga (Herberts Cukurs) and Mark Weber it's just so good to know that there are sane people who don't think I'm imagining things and agree to basic things like Mark Weber and Herberts Cukurs are the bad guys. It's good to see that at least English Wikipedia editors take Holocaust denialism seriously and oppose it strongly. I never expected to be in this huge battle and was absolutely shocked than anyone on Wikipedia would persistently defend Cukurs and the blog with Webers stuff but it is so good to see other people on Wikipedia standing up to the Nazis and Holocaust deniers instead of praising them.--QazyQazyQazaqstan (talk) 16:52, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

"Digital wealth" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Digital wealth has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Anyone, including you, is welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 November 7 § Digital wealth until a consensus is reached. - CHAMPION ^{(talk) (contributions) (logs)} 05:15, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Copyeditor's Barnstar
	Thank you for edits to Palestinian law. Bearian (talk) 15:13, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

Michael Mainelli

Ciao Davide King

Impressed with the contributions you are making & wondered whether you could review Michael Mainelli who became Lord Mayor of London this week. The article about him in Italian Wiki remains a Bozza. Oughtn't this be released now that he is Lord Mayor?

Grazie mille.

Primm1234 (talk) 17:03, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

Jackson Hinkle loves your edits

Check this out, if you haven't seen it: [5]. Marokwitz (talk) 14:48, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for the copyedits!

I see that you've already received three copyeditor's barnstars recently, so I'll spare you another one. Just wanted to thank you for the work you've done on the article about syndicalism! :D --Grnrchst (talk) 17:16, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Jackson Hinkle

Communism

I assume your edit on Jackson Hinkle was done without much thought, and that’s okay I’m not offended. I’ve certainly edited articles without too much thought and have been wrong in the past.

But if Wikipedia has an ideology labeled as “left and far left” in the article, any individuals who are labeled as “right wing communists” need to be relabeled, or the communism article needs to be changed. It’s a matter of consistency. Sources written by those who are not political science experts are not valid arguments to the contrary. Nate Rybner 18:23, 24 November 2023 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Naterybner (talk • contribs)

@Naterybner, are you referring to this edit? First of all, nowehere does our Jackson Hinkle article says that he is a "right-wing communist"; this appears to be your own original research that is not supported by reliable sources Second of all, Wikipedia is based on independent reliable sources, and what our article says about him is merely reflecting what those sources have said. Thirdly, do you think North Korea is a democratic republic because its official name is Democratic People's Republic of Korea? Finally, do you think the Nazis were socialists and left-wing because they called themselves National Socialists? Indeed, for things like these, we should rely on political science experts, who by the way generally agree that the Nazis were extremist right-wingers and co-opted socialist rethoric to gain power. Did you also miss the important MAGA caveat in MAGA Communism? I think you gave communism way too much weight than it warrants, as reliable sources have seen it more as a meme than anything serious. In fact, if you actually read the whole article, you would have found this quote from an expert, saying: "But what's interesting about the 'MAGA Communism' phrase is that it doesn't necessarily mean communism in the literal sense of, say, demanding collective ownership. I think it's meant to be a kind of cultural invocation—a defense from that which the elites want you to believe. It suggests something about how people's political moorings are unsettled, and the search to find new bearings." So there is no contradiction. Davide King (talk) 21:45, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

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Javier Milei 2023 presidential campaign

Just letting you know that I moved Javier Milei 2023 presidential campaign to Javier Milei 2023 presidential campaign because I thought it would be more WP:CONSISTENT with other presidential campaign articles such as Donald Trump 2016 presidential campaign, Vladimir Putin 2018 presidential campaign, and others. If you have a problem with the new title, you are always free to revert me if you wish. The Night Watch (talk) 15:31, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

No problem, in fact thank you! I thought I was the one being consistent but I misremembered. Thank you for fixing this. :-) Davide King (talk) 15:41, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

"Fictional history" listed at Redirects for discussion

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Nomination of Controversies involving Javier Milei for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Controversies involving Javier Milei is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

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Wikipedia policy

I think I'm getting a better understanding of the problem, and why there is so much disagreement. It seems many editors believe that notable content from reliable sources must be written in Wikivoice, and if the content is not disputed by other reliable sources, then the content should be written as fact. This is not a widely accepted definition of fact outside of Wikipedia, and changes the meaning of Wikipedia policy.

Further, it creates contention, since Wikipedia is now taking a position on contentious topics. The Wikipedia position is essentially the consensus amongst editors, what reliable sources have written about a topic. The result is that Wikipedia is a consensus based opinion source, stating Wikipedia's views factually, and these views are a distillation of the reliable sources used in each article. In most topics this is not a problem, since the consensus is uncontroversial and will not be a common topic of debate in society.

I don't think this works for political content. For most other topics it wouldn't be a problem, but politics are inherently disputed topics. No wonder it causes all this mess?

Some issues arise:

• Many topics will only be covered by one type of reliable source, e.g. if media coverage is the only source of information on a topic, Wikipedia articles will reflect the biases or perspectives prevalent in the media. This gives you limited perspectives and an echo chamber effect.
• Sensationalism is often not countered or disputed by other reliable sources directly, so editors will insist that Wikipedia should present these narratives as fact.
• Journalism contains frequent errors, thats just a natural part of it, and these are often not corrected, because its not what attracts readers. This is easily propagated through international media, because they use each other as sources, because there is editorial oversight, and the information is supposed to be verified.
• Media is often used to spread bias or propaganda, this is where things become complicated when applying critical thinking and assess if the information is correct or not. This obviously depends on the country and specifics, but e.g. US media is predominantly liberals/democrats, so there is a bias towards this perspective.
• The consensus driven approach is good, but there is a risk that with lack of diversity of opinion amongst editors, this will essentially just reinforce a soapbox.

My worry is that these policies, while helpful for general encyclopedic content, becomes very harmful to the public discourse on political topics. E.g. the political polarization going on in the US can not end well, and Wikipedia is right in the middle of it. There is a big risk they will elect Donald Trump as a result of the polarization, not because of his policies. You can compare it to what happened in Argentina, Massa had such an aggressive anti-Milei campaign, it resulted in many people voting for Milei, who otherwise wouldn't have.

I also wonder, now that more and more news and content is shifting away from traditional media, into social media, X/Twitter, Facebook, YouTube etc are becoming the main sources of information. Yet these are not included in Wikipedia at all, but it may be difficult to resolve this problem in a way that works.

Since we are moving so far off-topic in the other discussions, i thought this was more relevant to discuss here, if you had any thoughts on it. Pedantic Aristotle (talk) 14:59, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

@Pedantic Aristotle, that is indeed part of the misunderstaning. I am not sure I agree with your characterization and whether it is accurate but yes, for example, Wikipedia states as fact that "Trump refused to concede after losing the 2020 presidential election to Joe Biden, falsely claiming widespread electoral fraud". It is also true that this is not a problem with most other topics, and indeed "politics are inherently disputed topics". But I am not sure even if we wre to attribute everything, there would no longer be dispute or problems. I think that it is precisely because "politics are inherently disputed topics" that they will be disputed no matter what. Even I dislike, perhaps a part from a few exceptions where it makes sense, the "Subject ... is a 'far-left'-'far-right'" in the first sentence and prefer a propoer sentence to describe someone politics. For example, the lead of "Adolf Hitler", which is categorized as a "Good article", makes no mention of "far-right" in the lead but I think the prose is clear. Yet there are many people who believe that Hitler was a far-left socialist, so perhaps "far-right" should be added?

In general, I too am concerned about polarization and wondered about this but I think you are being a bit too catastrophic, and I would hope that if Trump were to win, it will be for plenty of reasons over what we see at Wikipedia. I think it would also be helpful if you could provide some clear examples, so I could give you a better answer.

• I can see your point here and understand from where you are coming for. That is usually what happens at the beginning of an article, when little to no academic books or articles are available. Thankfully, with time and as more and better sources come out and with the effort of everyone involved, that becomes a non-issue as the better "Good" or "Featured" articles I have read mostly rely on the WP:BESTSOURCES (e.g. books by reliable publishers or academic articles and books).
• Tabloids, which are the main news sources who engage in sensationalism, are genereally not only considered not reliable but mostly generally unreliable. Do we have a different understanding of sensationalism, too? I would not call WP:RELIABLESOURCES, such as those listed at WP:RSP, as sensational just because they are news outlets.
• In fact, news WP:SOURCES that we consider generally reliable are precisely these that issue retractions when they get something wrong, have fact checking, and have editorial oversight. So I do not understand your point here, especially since I would prefer using academic books or articles but when all we have are news sources, it is better than nothing.
• Media that spreads propaganda is by default considered generally unreliable and some of them are even blacklisted. All sources are WP:BIASED, what matters is that they are reliable. It is not our fault if so many American conservative news sources have peddled to propaganda or conspiracy theories; there are also several fringe left-wing sources that are not reliable, we do not discriminate.

I am not sure about news and content "shifting away from traditional media", since reliable news sources have their own website that we can cite. And again, the better articles will rely on the best sources, e.g. academic ones over news outlets, so I do not think that is a problem. In general, Wikipedia is not good to right great wrongs, and "Wikipedia is not a publisher of original thought or original research. Wikipedia doesn't lead; we follow. Let reliable sources make the novel connections and statements. Finding neutral ways of presenting them is what we do." Perhaps you should take your concerns at Wikipedia talk:Neutral point of view, make a WP:PROPOSAL, or see if you can gain consensus for a change of wording that would help fix issues.
Davide King (talk) 22:10, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Merry Christmas!

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Happy New Year!

Davide King,
Have a prosperous, productive and enjoyable New Year, and thanks for your contributions to Wikipedia.
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Tickle my curiosity

I was about to fetch sources for an article you created (Sergio Zavoli), when I noticed your intriguing username. Any connection to the opera Davide Re by Amintore Galli? IgnatiusofLondon (talk) 10:01, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

February 2024

Your edit to 1997 European Grand Prix has been removed in whole or in part, as it appears to have added copyrighted material to Wikipedia without evidence of permission from the copyright holder. If you are the copyright holder, please read Wikipedia:Donating copyrighted materials for more information on uploading your material to Wikipedia. For legal reasons, Wikipedia cannot accept copyrighted material, including text or images from print publications or from other websites, without an appropriate and verifiable license. All such contributions will be deleted. You may use external websites or publications as a source of information, but not as a source of content, such as sentences or images—you must write using your own words. Wikipedia takes copyright very seriously, and persistent violators of our copyright policy will be blocked from editing. See Wikipedia:Copying text from other sources for more information. — Diannaa (talk) 14:56, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

Unsourced edits

You know well that unsourced edits are reverted, Egeymi (talk) 12:18, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

"Bader–Ofer method" listed at Redirects for discussion

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Disambiguation link notification for May 10

An automated process has detected that when you recently edited Naturalistic pantheism, you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page Naturalism.

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I have sent you a note about a page you started

Hi Davide King. Thank you for your work on Christine Mackinday. Another editor, Voorts, has reviewed it as part of new pages patrol and left the following comment:

Please remember to tag redirects that you create per WP:REDCAT.

To reply, leave a comment here and begin it with {{Re|Voorts}}. (Message delivered via the Page Curation tool, on behalf of the reviewer.)

voorts (talk/contributions) 02:43, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

last time I checked

last time I checked, MoS explicitily said that one-sentence paragraphs (as in the lead) are to be avoided, also it would be good if you could keep the other edits that were okay rather than just revert it all

Kinda snotty to say "last time I checked".

Good? In what sense? IMO the most important and bad changes were in the lede and that later changes were relatively small so you could remake them with little effort. But, IMO important that the lede is not two blobs of unrelated sentences.

I think reverting a revert is also considered poor style.

If MoS explicitily says that one-sentence paragraphs (as in the lead) are to be avoided, then no problem. Should is a suggestion. It implies that there might be conflicting aspects that are more important. I'd say that having well-formed paragraphs outweighs the single-line paragraph rule. ... A better way to solve the issue is to make the sentences work together. That will require more thought. More effort than pressing the delete key a few times. :) I think what you did was done for a good reason, but with a lack of skill with writing. WP is about good writing; not just following rules.

One thing I learned about writing is that you follow the rules. Except with not following the rules is better.

Please don't let quality suffer due to rote rule-following.

And don't say mean stuff like "last time I checked". Maturity makes you more attractive. Stevebroshar (talk) 01:10, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

ITN recognition for Julian Assange

On 26 June 2024, In the news was updated with an item that involved the article Julian Assange, which you updated. If you know of another recently created or updated article suitable for inclusion in ITN, please suggest it on the candidates page. Schwede66 22:03, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

"Right-wing media" listed at Redirects for discussion

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"Trump's politics" listed at Redirects for discussion

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"Anti-LGBTQ+" listed at Redirects for discussion

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Speedy deletion nomination of Leaked draft opinion in Dobbs Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health Organization

A tag has been placed on Leaked draft opinion in Dobbs Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health Organization requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section R3 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because it is a recently created redirect from an implausible typo or misnomer, or other unlikely search term.

If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. I dream of horses (Hoofprints) (Neigh at me) 04:31, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Are maintenance templates "copyediting"?

Hi. Perhaps it's just me, but when I see an edit summary of "ce" (meaning "copyediting"), I don't expect that to be an edit that adds maintenance templates (here Template:Use American English and Template:Use mdy dates) with no edits to copy. Of course it's not a big deal, but it changes how other editors review your edit (kind of the main point of an edit summary), so I would much rather see "added maintenance templates" or whatever. That said, I am not really all that familiar with the Engvar family of templates and when (and how) they should be added to articles, so perhaps I am missing a subtlety… Would you please use a more fulsome edit summary in these cases? Thank you. jhawkinson (talk) 12:36, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

@Jhawkinson, sorry for the late response, I have been busy and I have only the time to make some edits and could not take part to discussions. Thank you for your message, I am trying to fix that and be more clear with the edit summaries. I did kind of consider it part of copy editing (I am not English native, and I do not know how to summarize my edits, I did not even know what "ce" meant when I saw it used by other users), as they keep the date format consistent for the references used, and even when I do actual, more proper copy edits, I also add maintenance tags. For the language and dates, I usually add the one whether the topic is more relevant to the United States or the United Kingdom, etc. If global (and when there is no clear consistency, as otherwise I simply add the tag if the article is already consistenly formatted in a certain way), I would use Oxford English or English variance and dmy dates but recently I am mostly adding mdy or dmy dates. This is the Engvar template.
Davide King (talk) 00:36, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, Davide. It's not a great thing to use an abbreviation (ce) without knowing what it means, since that can lead to all kinds of confusion. I appreciate your desire to be more clear and hope it works well. Maintenance tags are definitely not part of copyediting, which is changing the actual text of the article. (Indeed, it's not really great to say "ce" when you can say something more specific. But if you move around 20 commas and recast a few sentences, many people will use "copyediting" because it's challenging to summarize the actual changes and they are low-import.) I'm aware of what the Engvar templates are, I'm just very unclear on when to use them. I don't think it's appropriate for you to add one to each article you edit, but I'm uncertain of that and the template instructions don't make it clear. But that's a question for another day. Thanks again for your willingness to listen! jhawkinson (talk) 00:41, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I know something about that, since I was the one who did not understand what that mean (lol) but I do not recall having much issues and I thought that everyone else understood what that meant since you are the first one to make me notice this. I also use "ce" or "wls" (wikilinks) simply because I am trying to save some time (I know it does not take much to write it in full, I am just so used to it) and make more edits. But if you move around 20 commas and recast a few sentences, many people will use "copyediting" because it's challenging to summarize the actual changes and they are low-import.) That is what I do most of the time (plus some formatting, such as space or merge or separate too short or too long paragraphs to improve readability and aesthetics) and I did not leave any edit summary because I did not know how to call that or how to summarize it. I do not know about maintenance templates, I always saw them in many articles, so I thought it was a given and that if they are not there, they simply need to be added (I also add the short description template when the is not one, even if just to add "none") and I do not recall being reverted for adding them, so I never thought it was unnecessary, I always thought it was an improvement. As for Engvar templates, I do not know, I imagine they are added to articles were the topic is beyond the United States or the United Kingdom (if I recall correctly, I have seen it used in some Bangladesh, Canada, or India-related articles). Thanks to you and sorry if I caused any issue!
Davide King (talk) 01:04, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

File:Juventus FC (Torino, 1997) - Giraudo, Lippi, U. Agnelli, Moggi, Bettega.jpg listed for discussion

A file that you uploaded or altered, File:Juventus FC (Torino, 1997) - Giraudo, Lippi, U. Agnelli, Moggi, Bettega.jpg, has been listed at Wikipedia:Files for discussion. Please see the discussion to see why it has been listed (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry). Feel free to add your opinion on the matter below the nomination. Thank you. — Ирука¹³ 07:05, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

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File:Fiorenzuola 1992-93.jpg listed for discussion

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Suggestive edit for LHO's death section

I wonder if you could be able to edit the Lee Oswald death section. The section currently reads; "At 11:21 a.m. CST, Dallas nightclub operator Jack Ruby approached Oswald from the side of the crowd and shot him once in the abdomen at close range. As the shot rang out, a police detective recognized Ruby and exclaimed: "Jack, you son of a bitch!" The crowd outside the headquarters applauded when they heard that Oswald had been shot. An unconscious Oswald was taken by ambulance to Parkland Memorial Hospital – the same hospital where Kennedy was pronounced dead two days earlier". The detective who called out Ruby's name and the outside crowd reaction is superfluous to the Oswald article. It could be rewritten to include Oswald's last recorded words and his reaction after being shot; Something like, "As Oswald ascended in the elevator to the basement, his last recorded words were, "I want to see the American Civil Liberties Union." And, have this added, "As the shot rang out, Oswald screamed "Oh!" in pain and his hands clutched at his stomach as he moaned while slumping to the floor. As Ruby was subdued by police, Oswald was carried back into the basement level jail office. Detective Billy Combest asked Oswald, "Do you have anything you want to tell us now?" Oswald shook his head." In addition, the death section currently reads LHO was unconscious when in the ambulance; but Frederick Bieberdorf, a medical student who rode with Oswald in the ambulance, stated that Oswald fought him as he tried to provide medical assistance during the ride. He was probably in an altered conscious state (maybe) and unless I'm misunderstanding Beiberdorf's wording he is applying cardiac massage on route to the Hospital. I guess what I'm trying to say is that the "thrashing about" and resisting efforts to support his life may have been his own body's reflex actions. Of course I'm no Doctor so he certainly could have been "fighting" with them but because Oswald expired not long after the journey to hospital it would make sense that he was in the stages of "dying" on route to Parkland. The final section could be rewritten as;

“Drifting in and out of consciousness, Oswald was placed in an ambulance and was driven to Parkland Memorial Hospital, the same hospital where President Kennedy had died just two days earlier. Frederick Bieberdorf, a medical student on duty, rode in the ambulance, said that several blocks before reaching the hospital, Oswald started thrashing about, resisting Beiberdorf's efforts of heart massage and attempting to free an oxygen mask over his mouth.” This is already on the talk page for the article, but I thought you could do it. 80.45.146.138 (talk) 22:45, 8 December 2024 (UTC) 80.45.146.138 (talk) 22:45, 8 December 2024 (UTC)