User talk:ProfGray

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Welcome!

Hi ProfGray, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like it here and decide to stay. Our intro page provides helpful information for new users—please check it out! If you have any questions, you can get help from experienced editors at the Teahouse. Happy editing! User:ProfGray (talk) 18:38, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

Thanks

Thanks for humouring me in this rabbit hole @ProfGray. I started out just being passingly interested in this. Then upon finding this series of Wiki pages that - and I say this with ample examples - were written with a greatly-researched depth on the slave trade aspects, but a broad indifference, or even combative tone, to acknowledging any other aspects of these people's other WP:significant views. It's a controversial topic that deserves care, and I'm saddened that I am spending half of my comments attempting to dispel aspersions about my character, or the type of source Phillips (1953) is (i.e. it is not self-published/unpublished (it is published by National Museums Liverpool), not primary, etc...).

I appreciate that you are taking the care to assess the statements for their merit independently, even if this source (Phillips, 1953) is not a fully independent source of the subject matter. In some instances, that is probably of benefit! I certainly won't take Phillips' word that "the Dawsons were a well-respected family" etc... but I think I can believe him when he says "many sources confuse this, but it was Baker and Co. up until after the Carnatic, at which point it became Baker and Dawson" - which tracks with other sources as well beyond being completely sensible within-text.

It's much appreciated that someone else actually looked at this document and considered it, rather than just attacking it as illegitimate - and this after I was invited by said person to contribute to the article based on this document... I am genuinely just trying to be a good scholar here, and it's greatly appreciated to be treated with a belief that I am acting in good faith given the knee-jerk responses of most others, and the increasing libel of some... Cheers -- Crawdaunt (talk) 14:36, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, I love the Phillips manuscript and I wish we had more from my family. As a scholar (though in a different field than you), it took me some time to adjust to WP standards. We aren't looking for good scholarship, at least not in the sense that it would cross into Wikipedia:No original research. If you actually found an error with, say, John vs James, you could give the info to one of the published historians and maybe they would publish a research note or correction that could then be used in Wikipedia. Or they might question the validity of James on the cover page alone. Anyway, does that make sense?

FWIW, I'd encourage you to withdraw the RM and the AN/I stuff. It's just not worth it and it detracts from how you come across ProfGray (talk) 14:57, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. Indeed I've got the WP:OR concept down, thus why I'm restricting many of these discussions to Talk pages. That's precisely where WP:OR can be raised to help make sense of conflicting info like found in Williams, Behrendt, Pope, Postigo, and Phillips. I'm not sure I agree that "because it says it only once, it doesn't count." If that were true, we'd discount Williams (1897), and ignore the legitimate concern of citogenesis that seemingly stems from Williams as the oldest source being cited in these circles.

• RFC: I kinda got sucked into Desertarun's style without realizing there is a better classifier for what I was hoping to achieve. So now with WP:RFC, I hope the page will see more reasoned debate without stakes behind it. Regardless, I leave my detailed notes (ramblings) that someone two years down the line could take on board if they choose.

Would you suggest to Desertarun that he uses RFC for Peter Baker also?

• AN/I I appreciate seeming a bit hysterical does me no favours, but there is a seriousness to Desertarun's conduct that I genuinely believe deserves AN/I. When someone casts aspersions, it is not merely the indignance, but the lasting damage that it causes to the framing of the debate. If someone starts by saying a source is "primary", it takes me repeating myself umpteen times before someone goes "oh... wait yeah no having a COI doesn't make it primary, that's a different thing." Likewise for WP:SPS, etc... The true damage that Desertarun has done here is, by continuously attacking me, they've made it impossible to consider the merits of the content at hand.

It is depressing that self-declaring a COI at Wikipedia makes one untrustable, which is not Wikipedia's intent behind their WP:COI policy. I will continue to do so in the future if it is relevant, but it seems a double standard that a user like Desertarun that practically invents a DAB and writes multiple articles using it is somehow given a free pass for any concern of COI.

All that said, thanks again for your patience and interest. You're the best kind of Wiki editor: able to balance being nice and also being neutral. It's a skill! -- Crawdaunt (talk) 15:59, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Just a thought (and one I'd prefer a user like yourself to add if you are convinced by my argument): because WP:OR concerns would apply to this seeming discovery of John Dawson vs. James Dawson, and because there is a genuine second notable John Dawson slave trader (Pope, 2007), could we at least DAB two different John Dawson articles?

At a minimum, two "John Dawson" pages would disambiguate "merchant" slave trader John Dawson (?-1812) father of Frederik and someone who commissioned 50 vessels of slaves (Pope 2007), and "John Baker Dawson" from Williams 1897 who was captain of Mentor. Heck... the DABs could be "John Dawson (-1812)" and "Captain J. Dawson (1752-1824)" to avoid commiting to either, which honestly seems appropriate given the honourific "Captain" seems to be used throughout. The purpose of a DAB isn't to judge a character, it's to make it easier to find the right article. "Capt J. Dawson" would be the most consistent with how each of these texts reference Dawson, and avoid the John vs. James debate per titling altogether. Then the page itself could just mention the John vs. James thing, where I feel there's credible uncertainty.

I've also just realized one more striking note in Phillips: Phillips (1953) cites Gomer Williams (1897) on pg31. I originally misread this as "Gomez." But Phillips, knowing of Williams 1897, nonetheless titled it "James Dawson" and wrote elsewhere "There are many conflicting stories..." on pg16 regarding the accounts of Capt. J. Dawson. So HS Phillips was well aware of Williams (1897), and yet titled this collection with "James Dawson" on the title page pretty unambiguously. -- Crawdaunt (talk) 16:26, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Hi again @Crawdaunt. First of all, thank you for appreciating my efforts to be both NPOV and kind. Second, thanks for withdrawing the RM for James, I think that's the best approach.

Third, I advise you to stop writing, even in Talk pages, about DAB and Renames for Baker, Dawson, and any other slave trader articles. I feel that you have a fine scholarly enthusiasm for getting things right, but every time you talk about DAB (and article names) you are going to come across as pushing exactly in line with your COI. If you persist, I suspect you will get some admin reaction, like a bann on editing the pages altogeiher. As it stands now, you can edit some useful sections of Peter Baker and this will help improve his biography here. I know this advice is not easy to take, but even so, I mean it for your own sake. I wish you the best. ProfGray (talk) 17:43, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, I'll take that advice. If I do make any future contributions, it will be solely to add references that help reinforce claims relying somewhat heavily on Phillips (1953), even if Liverpool Echo (1961) currently substantiates many pertinent ones, and already-existing Wikis validate the importance/significant view aspect of others. Those wikis likely have references that would be useful, and if there's a concern of content accuracy, I'd like to address it. I'll stay off talk pages from hereon - my last post was really my last. I feel like I've now discovered far more than can be digested in one cursory read of a Talk page, so further additions are not productive. It needs someone to second (and third) the desire for corrections.

I will continue the AN/I for now. I believe it is a matter of subversive conduct at heart. But your view is noted, I appreciate it, and I'll consider it going forward. If I can make one last request, if you agree that Phillips (1953) is not a primary source (right?[1]), could you please remove the "Primary" tag on Peter Baker (slave trader) that Desertarun added to the main page? It's another example of how their conduct attempts to bias the incoming reader to a POV, and is part of the numerous examples of conduct violations relevant to my concern.

I mean, I was shocked to see just how pervasive their edits with this DAB go, with some 13+ articles written by Desertarun just on 1800s slave traders alone in defiance of more common DABs. See: here. Roman Spinner brought this up. There's a slight precedent for this DAB: ex. Thomas_Walker_(slave_trader) was DAB'd like this by TheAnome in 2013. But beyond this one example, all these DABs pre-2021 come from Desertarun, and then user Leutha wrote a couple more. To my point, Desertarun made these pages with a very clear and arguably biased POV, and is now doing things like adding incorrect notices of concern, casting inaccurate aspersions about sources, and making repeated personal attacks. I view the Baker article as an opportunity for referendum on Desertarun articles, which aren't wrong per se, but should clearly be subject to more than a piecemeal review for NPOV. I'd genuinely welcome the DAB "(slave trader)" being used more broadly because "(merchant)" or "(sailor)" is kind of offensive TBH. But if it's not, then it's not vey Wiki-like to let one arguably biased editor colour the perceptions of readers for an entire slew of biographical articles.

Will unfollow the pages to avoid temptation. Keeping notifications here. Best, and thanks again. -- Crawdaunt (talk) 18:26, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Hi again. I can remove the Primary tag, but I would do that after there's no more info that relies solely on Phillips 1953 (due to RS concerns). FWIW, I disagree about Desertarun -- for example, it isn't "casting aspersions" to downgrade or criticize a source (as opposed to a person), it isn't a clear POV bias to think that "slave trader" is an encyclopedic DAB, and it is inappropriate to modify (or discuss) a single article as a "referendum" on a single editor's editing. For sure, I know it can be bothersome and upsetting when somebody adds tags and cites WP policies against my editing, but I'm not sure their position on an editorial question (such as DAB) is properly characterized as a "POV" -- usually a POV is like taking sides on a contentious issue, not an editorial decision like this. Best wishes, hang in there, ProfGray (talk) 18:53, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. I agree there's a WP:RS concern that's valid. Wouldn't "more citation needed" be more appropriate then? The concern is WP:RS, not WP:PRIMARY. The COI concern per WP:RS is a very different one from WP:Primary. COI concerns occur often for historical documents, or for biographical pages/corporations. Primary concerns are much more disqualifying, as they imply WP:SPS, etc... -- Crawdaunt (talk) 19:31, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Hi. In terms of disqualifying, not RS is a severe problem and disqualifies most of the info from Phillips. Nonetheless,

Citation needed -- useful idea, if we think some corroborating evidence might be found. I made a few edits and used that at least once. But I'd prefer that you either remove all text that relies on Phillips 1953, else let me know what you think can be kept. It's too hard to figure out what you added from Phillips that isn't in the other sources. ProfGray (talk) 20:38, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

I have found numerous external references that source almost everything I added previously from Phillips. It appears some of the colour/extended detail from Phillips' accounts was likely from the book: History of the Royal and Ancient Toxteth Park, Robert Griffiths with information from G. H. Parry. 1907. I could find further book sources backing up various points, and database primary sources that I cited to confirm evidence of transitioning names of companies and approximate dates of activity, but these do still rely on Phillips (1953) to more easily make sense of them, and so keeping both references would be better. There are also a fair few minor date disagreements among ship registers, ship register websites, Phillips (1953), etc... that don't affect the substance of the content, but just the precise timings of when shipbuilding-relevant things happened (when ships were built/launched, when companies were active). In places where I was unable to find a clear reference, but which felt like content that was fair to remain, I added a tag and explained the CN, and provided a reasoning behind keeping the sentence (e.g. Barton likely to be Thomas Barton). -- Crawdaunt (talk) 23:46, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

thanks. I'm curious about ship registers. Aren't these primary sources? Isn't it WP:OR to extract (and interpret) data and cite them? I noticed their use on some other articles about the ships.

I cut down the Phillips citations to 7, you've now increased it to 12. This is a mistake, in my view, because it is not a reliable source and it's usage should be cut down as much as possible, if not completely eliminated.

My two cents: Although I realize you felt deeply offended by Desertarun, I would kindly suggest that you re-imagine him as an ally and collaborator in the writing of the Baker bio and related articles. He cares about the topic and wants it to be encyclopedic. Without his buy-in, the article will continue to have a cautionary tag (Primary or otherwise) as long as Phillips is used or in-depth details are added that alter the article's Proportions. If you are willing, then address the use of Phillips in the Talk section "Primary source," which he appropriately created to back up the tag. Do not argue about primary vs secondary. Do not address the user (e.g., by "you" or username) only discuss the use of the source. Concede that other sources are needed for nearly everything in Phillips 1953. Ask if and when it is acceptable to retain the Phillips citation, for instance, while searching for an RS corroboration or (as you say above) to enable readers to more easily make sense of the information. In other words, propose a very small number of uses and see if you can get consensus (buy-in) on those uses.

Also -- be short and simple. Start with 3-4 sentences, NOT longer. Avoid linking and policy terms.

I hope this advice is useful. It's based on my WP collaboration skills and some research I've read about disputes (e.g., don't address the user). ProfGray (talk) 00:29, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, I'll keep them in mind for the future. My tendency as an academic is to cite and explain fully, and this is appreciated by some, but not others. That said, I'm also just recusing myself from these Wiki pages any further, unless someone specifically requests me to come in for comment. I am happy to let the pages sort themselves out from here.

At the core, I really believe Desertarun has a vested interest in rightgreatwrongs here. They wrote a dozen-plus articles in 2020 with politically-charged DABs that weighted heavily on a sole significant view, built them up, then nominated them for front page highlighting. If that's not an attempt to use Wikipedia to "ride the crest of the wave", I don't know what is. It's regrettable my conduct distracted from that core concern.

Per primary sources: this is something I'd seen done for other ship articles. Citing of ship registers (which are just lists) is similarly a primary source, and Loyd's register is used all over these pages. Phillips (1953) explains the sequential order of company inheritance, and these are cited solely for the existence of those companies. If you think they're not helpful, please remove them. Again, thanks for volunteering to mediate, the constructive feedback, and for engaging respectfully. Best -- Crawdaunt (talk) 01:23, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

To offer a diff perspective on Desertarun, look at the rightgreatwrongs examples, which are specific, tendentious, and lack sources. Don't forget the ending of that section: "If, however, the wrong that you want to address has already been sorted in the real world, and if you have the reliable sources to support it, then please do..." How is it tendentious to write about the slave trade? How is (slave trader) a "politically-charged" phrase when everybody agrees that it's wrong, there's no opposing POV, it's not a contentious issue. And for our culture, it's the most significant aspect of people like Peter Baker, as I think you've conceded. ProfGray (talk) 02:21, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

The near-invention of the DAB, and widespread use, created a circular precedent on Wikipedia which itself did not have that precedent prior. As a result, a major consistency concern was created. As I've noted, I'd be happy to change others from (merchant) to (slave trader) if there had been some RFC on this. But as it stands, it's one user that's unilaterally created this precedent and spread it across many of their own articles. And I do think if that DAB obscures other significant views, or creates confusion (e.g. there are "two John Dawsons" that were both slave traders (died 1812) and (died 1824)), then it's just a bad DAB. Articles will have their content regardless of DAB. But DABs should be neutral to represent all significant views. Making DABs non-neutral, focusing on only one of multiple significant views, and so systematically depressing other significant views, is rightgreatwrongs. It makes Wikipedia less objective and more confusing. My take. -- Crawdaunt (talk) 03:53, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

To clarify: no it's not contentious that slave trading is abhorrent, and one of the most significant views of these people. But it's not the only significant view. -- Crawdaunt (talk) 03:54, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

Discussion break

Hi. Your concern is about the (slave trader) DAB "systematically depressing other significant views." This sounds like some other view is consistently, repeatedly, being left out. What significant views are "systematically" being suppressed? ProfGray (talk) 06:06, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

I think we just have a healthy disagreement on neutral/due weight. I believe the ideal of Wiki articles is that all significant views are covered in length and organisation according to their significance. If you have info primarily related to one significant view, that's fine to create an article. Those are stub/start class, and they can be updated by the community to fill gaps. But ideally you don't create a DAB for that article that makes it hard or confusing to later connect it to other significant views you may be unaware of. You also really shouldn't go on a campaign to pump your articles to the front page through "DYK" (see July 2021 trail), which is basically using Wiki to advertise that significant view (re: "systematic"). And I'm not the first to raise a concern that Desertarun's articles are full of original narratives. That's the bias concern, even if it's a bias written from the right side of history and edited in good faith.

Like... "for our culture, it's the most significant aspect of people like Peter Baker". I think that's true in a WP:OR sense, but getting outside his Wikipedia article arguing it, I'm genuinely not sure it's Peter Baker's main infamy. I went hunting for info on this guy, and I first found him as lord mayor, then I asked archivists and they dug up articles on the capture of the Carnatic, and Carnatic Hall. Even the modern articles of "famous in Liverpool tied to slave trade" have two-three other significant views they lay out first: i) the capture of Carnatic to explain ii) Carnatic Hall, which together is an impact extending into the modern day (noteworthy because it has pathos attached to it), then iii) the lord mayor part, i.e. "big deal guy", and finally iv) the slave trader part, which is the sobering fact of those articles once you know the rest. These historical persons rarely make the "famous in Liverpool history" status without having other significant views. So to frame not just the article (good), but even the DAB itself (messy), around one significant view systematically depresses the idea that these figures have other significant views. Best -- Crawdaunt (talk) 14:26, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

Hi. You didn't answer my question: What significant views are "systematically" being suppressed?

You feel there's something inappropriate. But what is wrong with anyone creating new articles on a topic? And, really, why this feeling about the DYKs? After all, we have entire WikiProjects to get people to create new articles -- and hence DYKs -- on topics that would benefit from more coverage. Like Women in Red, it's a campaign.

It seems like you come back to arguing about the DAB for Peter Baker, rather than any systematic suppression of a non-slavery primary topic(s) as the disambiguator.

Again, my basic suggestion is to assume good faith with Desertarun, collaborate on Baker or other articles, and deal with each concern on a case-by-case basis without assuming some kind of systematic bias on their part. ProfGray (talk) 15:35, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

I felt I did. I think we don't see eye-to-eye on how a title shapes a perception. A page title is the most impactful, most important part of any article. The reason I come back to DAB is because before you know any of the text, your view is already influenced towards one significant view. For articles where multiple significant views may be possible, and where the writing may not provide complete coverage, providing DABs off only the significant view the author knows of unduly influences the fate of the article. You see what I mean?

It's ok if we disagree here. But I'm not intending to dodge questions. I just give a very high value to a title as an influence on the reader. -- Crawdaunt (talk) 18:09, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

If that's not direct enough: lord mayor is a significant view suppressed by the DAB "(slave trader)". The author, with their own narrative, may feel "(slave trader)" is a more notable DAB. But that's WP:OR, and prior to the slew of articles Desertarun wrote, it was a very uncommon DAB. One would have expected "(lord mayor)" for someone like Baker, as there was a long-running precedent. And the same comment applies to all lord mayors now DAB'd by Desertarun with "(slave trader)". -- Crawdaunt (talk) 18:13, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

Hi, your comments refer to two types of "views" — there are the views reflected in sources and central to NPOV and POV — and then there are editorial choices, like DAB, which is not a "view" (POV) in Wiki policy discourse. (Or the views of readers, too.)

The article should reflect all significant views POVs and info in the reliable sources, and write them up in a neutral way.

The DAB and title do not need to reflect these views. They should refer to the "primary topic" — (1) what readers will care about and (2) what's of long term significance, educational value, as determined by us editors. Maybe the slave trade was not a big deal to 18th sources, but how important is it to readers nowadays?

Is "Lord Mayor" of greatest significance to readers of this biography? If so, how many years did Baker serve and what were his significant accomplishments were?

(Also: Please look at the definition of Original Research, because it isn't relevant to the DAB at stake, or to accusations about any editor's choice for that DAB.) Yes, article titles matter and they should be recognizable, precise, and consistent with similar articles (be they slave traders or mayors). ProfGray (talk) 19:44, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

See, I agree with all of that, and yet I'm still not on board with how this entire (slave trader) DAB was established across these articles. Consider how this would have been different if it had been a RFC for "(lord mayor)" -> "(slave trader)". Re: politically charged: would that have made a difference to the nature of the discourse? How would presumptive motivations of myself or Desertarun have been different? Heck: imagine I hadn't self-declared COI - if that'd change your view dramatically, I'd say politics are a huge factor.

I'll say outright that I probably would vote in favour of a theoretical "mayor->slaver" vote starting from mayor, if a proper debate was laid bare. I'd vote that way because it would be establishing precedent with a democratic process, and generating a reference discussion for similar issues across other (lord mayor)/(merchant) pages. My position atm comes from "Hey, it's kinda weird that one user decided to buck wp:consistency unilaterally." I did not endorse starting a formal vote, in fact I actively asked for a mediator to close it because it was opened in my name against my wishes. Then I got hit repeatedly by accusations of canvassing, bad faith due to COI, etc... A proper discussion would have been a boon to this corner of Wikipedia. Instead we're left with a mess.

It's a shame too, because now that the page has the text on the rest of Baker's personal life added from Phillips (much of which originally from Griffiths (1907) it seems), it's the right time to have a WP:RFC. Editors earlier said "well, provided there aren't other significant views not on the page... keep." Well... now there are other significant views present. But I'm not stirring that hornet's nest again. Last time, I was roundly disregarded off a self-declared COI, and a bait-n-switch where I advertised a newly-available source up front, was invited to use it to write a section, and then got lambasted for using it as the editors I'd engaged with changed their opinion to "this is not WP:RS." If that complaint had been put to me first, I'd have found additional sources, which I now have. The content I added (including some of the content you removed) is almost entirely referenceable to more palatable sources like Griffiths (1907) or Boult (1868).

I'm an idiot who constantly overshares/overexplains. I'm on the spectrum, and feel I will be misunderstood if I don't explain everything clearly, which means no one reads what I write in sum (or worse, they selectively read it). But in the vice versa: one-sentence opinions lacking sources don't work for me. Even the conversation here is derailed from my point. You talk about how DABs should be X,Y,Z and that's not something I disagree with. I'm concerned entirely with the consistency process here, which affects a whole corner of Wikipedia.

Logging off for my mental health. You've genuinely been great @ProfGray, I really appreciate your respectful engagement, even if I'd like to agree to disagree. Keep doing what you're doing, you're very good at it. Best -- Crawdaunt (talk) 15:30, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Hi. What are citations or links for the Boult and Griffiths books?

Thanks for explaining your tendency to explain. I agree that the process was flawed, and I'm sorry for not catching the problem with the Phillips source earlier. For better or worse, WP editing decisions are usually to be based on principles, even if the preceding process was messed up. All the best, ProfGray (talk) 15:52, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Feedback request: Philosophy and religion Good Article nomination

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Women in Green's October 2024 edit-a-thon

Hello ProfGray:

WikiProject Women in Green is holding a month-long Good Article Edit-a-thon event in October 2024!

Running from October 1 to 31, 2024, WikiProject Women in Green (WiG) is hosting a Good Article (GA) edit-a-thon event with the theme Around the World in 31 Days! All experience levels welcome. Never worked on a GA project before? We'll teach you how to get started. Or maybe you're an old hand at GAs – we'd love to have you involved! Participants are invited to work on nominating and/or reviewing GA submissions related to women and women's works (e.g., books, films) during the event period. We hope to collectively cover article subjects from at least 31 countries (or broader international articles) by month's end. GA resources and one-on-one support will be provided by experienced GA editors, and participants will have the opportunity to earn a special WiG barnstar for their efforts.

We hope to see you there!

Grnrchst (talk) 14:18, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

Category:Articles with Add a Fact usage has been nominated for deletion

Category:Articles with Add a Fact usage has been nominated for deletion. A discussion is taking place to decide whether it complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. Fram (talk) 07:29, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

Your GA nomination of Jex Blackmore

The article Jex Blackmore you nominated as a good article has been placed on hold . The article is close to meeting the good article criteria, but there are some minor changes or clarifications needing to be addressed. If these are fixed within 7 days, the article will pass; otherwise it may fail. See Talk:Jex Blackmore and Talk:Jex Blackmore/GA1 for issues which need to be addressed. Message delivered by ChristieBot, on behalf of Grnrchst -- Grnrchst (talk) 16:03, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Thanks so much, @Grnrchst. I'm busy until after the Wiki Conf NA, so can you start the clock for revisions on Oct 7th? Cheers, ProfGray (talk) 17:21, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

@ProfGray: Aye, no bother. Enjoy the conference! --Grnrchst (talk) 18:09, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Feedback request: Philosophy and religion Good Article nomination

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Calls for the destruction of Israel

I'm totally ok with you discussing the notability, so long as the participants in question eventually answer the question: "what is the difference between call for the destruction of Israel" and anti-Zionism. In the past, I've never quite gotten a specific answer and hence I feel this is a fork.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 03:56, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

Hi. Well, we can't ensure or force ppl to answer. There are already some answers, e.g., the supposed Calls are rhetorical allegations (by outsiders), they are antisemitic, or they are a subset of anti-Zionism.

Regardless, I doubt that Wikipedia:Content forks is your best objection, because this article could be a sub-article (not an alternative) to various articles, such as Anti-Zionism. I think the problem is that the article is a hodgepodge of different oppositional policies, while the topic is defined (or implemented) in terms of speech ("Calls"). Do you see what I mean? Or should I elaborate? ProfGray (talk) 12:18, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

Sure an elaboration would be good. VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 13:48, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

If "calls for the destruction of Israel" is a subset of anti-Zionist, that implies there are aspects of anti-Zionist that are not about replacing Israel with something else. What exact aspects are they? VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 13:50, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

@ProfGray a polite ping, in case you're still interested in this discussion. If not, let me know and I won't ping you again.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 19:51, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm still interested in seeing what happens with the article. Anti-Zionism is a suitable article topic. I don't think "Calls for..." is a suitable topic. If the content doesn't belong in Anti-Zionism, I'm sure there's another place for some of the material. ProfGray (talk) 20:06, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

I imagine all of the content would belong in either anti-zionism or legitimacy of Israel, albeit trimmed and summarized. I can't imagine any content about "destroying Israel" not being within the scope of either of the other two articles.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 01:48, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

ok, I haven't checked all the content with various more suitable locations, @Vice regent, but I agree in principle with putting the (useful) content elsewhere. ProfGray (talk) 00:23, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

DYK nomination of 2024 Ohio Issue 1

Hello! Your submission of 2024 Ohio Issue 1 at the Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed, and some issues with it may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) at your nomination's entry and respond there at your earliest convenience. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! RoySmith (talk) 14:28, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for October 9

An automated process has detected that when you recently edited Jex Blackmore, you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page Variety.

(Opt-out instructions.) --DPL bot (talk) 19:56, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

thank you, bot, I believe I fixd it!ProfGray (talk) 21:23, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

Concern regarding Draft:Covenantal Pluralism

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Re: Disputes on Wikipedia

I would like to review your DYK, but Howardcorn33 added citation tags,[2] which leads to problems with WP:DYKCITE. You can either add citations (or make them more explicit if they already exist), or remove the material. Otherwise, I'm afraid that someone might fail your nom. Thanks. Viriditas (talk) 05:06, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for letting me know about the tags, @Viriditas. I've provided the necessary citations (without using Signpost) and, as you suggested, removed a clause about the 2010 BLP uproar that I can't find in reliable sources. ProfGray (talk) 13:45, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

You still have a tag in the "History of disputes on Wikipedia" section, which should be easy to resolve if the parent article has the original source. Viriditas (talk) 19:55, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, I cut it back and added a source there. Someday I can go back and hopefully fill in the history with other sources. One concern -- for organizations or individuals, there's some allowance for self-published sources that fit 5 criteria. Wikipedia:SelfSource. For basic facts, like the existence of an ArbCom case or a dispute resolution mechanism, it'd be helpful to be able to use Wikipedia or Signpost. But maybe inadvisable to this before DYK... or ever? ProfGray (talk) 21:12, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

I have to head out for the day. I will come back later and see if I can write the DYK review. You may want to get the upper hand by running all the checks before then, such as checking for copyright issues, hook length, text-source integrity, reliability, bias issues, etc. That way, if you find any and can fix them by the time I return, the review will be that much easier for me. Viriditas (talk) 00:47, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

The section on "Deletion disputes" still has a citation needed tag in the first paragraph. Viriditas (talk) 09:03, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

You've got some grammar issues as well: "As of 2018, roughly 64 percent debates". You're missing a word. Viriditas (talk) 09:04, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

In an analysis of 5,414 editor profiles, two types of rival camps were discerned: camps that tended to lose their edit wars and those camps that dominated and kept winning. How did the winning camps succeed? They were more likely to ban opposing editors, revert edits, remove competing wikilinks, cite Wikipedia policies, show disrespect, be active in ArbCom proceedings, and especially exert control over cited references. Researchers expressed surprise that Wikipedia policies, designed to ensure balanced viewpoints, were instead leveraged to favor one point-of-view in contentious articles.

You buried this golden nugget half way down, which means most people will never read it. It's funny to me that this was only reported in 2023 when it's well known among most Wikipedians. It's just another form of lawfare. The policies were weaponized from the get-go. Viriditas (talk) 09:28, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

There are earlier studies that talk about rival camps, but I'm not sure any go into the "lawfare" aspect. As you say, it's old news to insiders, but maybe a hook idea for public audience? ProfGray (talk) 02:59, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Editors argued in adversial, not collaborative, ways because of commitments that went beyond Wikipedia.

Did you mean adversarial? And what does "commitments that went beyond Wikipedia" mean? Viriditas (talk) 09:32, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

You've got grammar issues in the "History of Disputes on Wikipedia" section: "Editing warring gave rise to the rule against three repeated reverts by the same editor." I think you mean edit warring? Viriditas (talk) 09:38, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Same thing: "Meanwhile, in its first decade, Wikipedia set up dispute resolution mechanisms, including the Arbitration Committee, and refined policies to designed to govern and reduce disputes." Viriditas (talk) 09:40, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for help with the copy edits and citation tags. This last one, about AfDs, brings up a concern for me. Depending on the editors active on an article, exceptions are made for WP:SELFSOURCE based on 5 criteria, e.g., facts with no reasonable contestation. Oh, I mentioned this above. Anyway, I'd keep the fact about creation restrictions, even though only based on a Signpost. Here's a diff for how I added this to the main deletion article, along with the image here. Ok there? ProfGray (talk) 03:07, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

I still have no idea what "commitments that went beyond Wikipedia" means. Try to rephrase, maybe? Viriditas (talk) 21:51, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Oh, I am sorry. Baker and Detienne mean that the rival editors had personal commitments that were beside the encyclopedic goals (aka pillars) of Wikipedia. Here's an attempt at rewording. Is this better? ProfGray (talk) 22:40, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Much better. Thanks. Viriditas (talk) 22:50, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Efrat

Hello ProfGray! At some point I randomly discovered the article Efrat (organization) and it was not great. I wanted to improve it but A) I can't and don't write articles and B) I can't read the local sources. Since you do and can, perhaps you are willing to take a look? I am of course happy to help in any way I can. I tried writing something better at some point but I kinda got lost in a forest of not very good sources. Polygnotus (talk) 18:04, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps @WhatamIdoing: is willing to help? They know far more than I do about such things; this stuff is pretty far outside of my wheelhouse. If you need any help with nerdy stuff you know where to find me. Polygnotus (talk) 18:09, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm curious, why can't you write articles? I'm honored to be asked, but I must admit that I have other writing and Wikipedia priorities. Is there a way I could lightly support your revising and editing of the article? ProfGray (talk) 21:15, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

I could, in theory, but it's a bit like having your plumber do your dentistry. Sure, she might figure it out, but it's not an efficient use of her talents. Do you know anyone else who might be willing and able? Polygnotus (talk) 21:54, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Idea: ask at Wikipedia:WikiProject Women in Religion ProfGray (talk) 22:03, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

btw, if I may ask, what prompted you to contact me? ProfGray (talk) 23:36, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

From my point of view (as someone who does not know you but has read your userpage) you appear to be the perfect candidate to write about Efrat because you:

1. Are not afraid of difficult topics (e.g. you mention the Westboro Baptist "Church" on your userpage)
2. Are able to read Hebrew
3. Have done research on Jewish bioethics

So to me you appear to be uniquely qualified. There could of course be a billion reasons that I am unaware of that I am wrong.

Polygnotus (talk) 23:39, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for noticing these things and explaining. For the foreseeable future, I have other "difficult topics," as you say, on my agenda. I'm occasionally in a WP editing group and I will try to remember to ask them about it. ProfGray (talk) 23:48, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

I looked in on the article a while ago. It seems to attract both ethno-religious and abortion dramas, plus the poster-child problem: just like all abortion clinics are "Planned Parenthood" to a certain class of Americans, anyone who discourages a pregnant woman from getting an abortion seems to be "part of Efrat" to a certain class in Israel. Because of these problems, I doubt that editors could even decide what would make the article better. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:05, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Yup. And of course being pro- or anti-abortion is a highly politicized thing in an area where demographic shifts are considered to be far more important than in other places. Polygnotus (talk) 23:39, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

Feedback request: Philosophy and religion Good Article nomination

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DYK for Disputes on Wikipedia

On 11 November 2024, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Disputes on Wikipedia, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that editors often line up in rival camps during contentious disputes on Wikipedia and the winning side typically cites encyclopedic policies to favor their viewpoint? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Disputes on Wikipedia. You are welcome to check how many pageviews the nominated article or articles got while on the front page (here's how, Disputes on Wikipedia), and the hook may be added to the statistics page after its run on the Main Page has completed. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

 — Chris Woodrich (talk) 00:03, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Links to draft articles

Please do not introduce links in actual articles to draft articles, as you did to Hebron Yeshiva. Since a draft is not yet ready for the main article space, it is not in shape for ordinary readers, and links from articles should not go to a draft. Such links are contrary to the Manual of Style. These links have been removed. Thank you. - Arjayay (talk) 21:43, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

thanks, sorry about that, and thanks for correcting it. I'll try not to repeat that. ProfGray (talk) 22:33, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

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Cwmhiraeth (talk) 00:03, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

November 2024

Thank you for your contributions. It seems that you may have added public domain content to one or more Wikipedia articles, such as Menachot. You are welcome to import appropriate public domain content to articles, but in order to meet the Wikipedia guideline on plagiarism, such content must be fully attributed. This requires not only acknowledging the source, but acknowledging that the source is copied. There are several methods to do this described at Wikipedia:Plagiarism#Public-domain sources, including the usage of an attribution template. Please make sure that any public domain content you have already imported is fully attributed. Thank you. Diannaa (talk) 17:25, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

I cited the source and used quotations, multiple times, but I will check to see if it meets the protocol(s) you've linked to, thanks! ProfGray (talk) 17:32, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

The thing that was missing it to make it clear that you copied from the source. For public domain content, please include the template {{source-attribution}} as part of your citation. Thanks. Diannaa (talk) 18:31, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

Ok, I put in the special JE template under References. However, afaik, all the text has been modified at this point. Is the current version adequte? Thanks for your feedback. ProfGray (talk) 18:37, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

Yes, all is well from a copyright point of view. Diannaa (talk) 18:50, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

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Thanks, now I sorta want one of those "I voted" buttons that we get at the precinct :-) ProfGray (talk) 04:20, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

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DYK for Benjamin Franklin Shumard

On 20 November 2024, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Benjamin Franklin Shumard, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that Benjamin Franklin Shumard's assistant named an oak species after him, and then sabotaged his reinstatement after he was fired? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Benjamin Franklin Shumard. You are welcome to check how many pageviews the nominated article or articles got while on the front page (here's how, Benjamin Franklin Shumard), and the hook may be added to the statistics page after its run on the Main Page has completed. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

1=Launchballer 00:02, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

thank you, User:Launchballer -- and thanks for your help with various DYKs, much appreciated, ProfGray (talk) 01:16, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Recent edit reversion

In this edit here, I reverted some information that appears to be a violation of our copyright policy.

I provided a brief summary of the problem in the edit summary, which should be visible just below my name. You can also click on the "view history" tab in the article to see the recent history of the article. This should be an edit with my name, and a parenthetical comment explaining why your edit was reverted. If that information is not sufficient to explain the situation, please ask.

I do occasionally make mistakes. We get hundreds of reports of potential copyright violations every week, and sometimes there are false positives, for a variety of reasons. (Perhaps the material was moved from another Wikipedia article, or the material was properly licensed but the license information was not obvious, or the material is in the public domain but I didn't realize it was public domain, and there can be other situations generating a report to our Copy Patrol tool that turn out not to be actual copyright violations.) If you think my edit was mistaken, please politely let me know and I will investigate. ~~~~ S Philbrick(Talk) 12:32, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Hi. The edits you reverted were not copyright violations, they were copy-and-paste from the public domain Jewish Encyclopedia. In addition, I think you deleted my citations of the source and the use of a source attribution template for JE.

For a better approach IMO to an experienced editor using the JE, see the comment above "November 2024" (on my talk page) and how it's information about the template needed. Plus, the comment gives me info about how to correct my edits, it was not a revert. Probably good approach for newbies, too.

See also: Wikipedia:Jewish Encyclopedia topics

Plus, your revert also deleted a sentence that was not from the JE and that was properly cited.

Please undo the revert asap. @Sphilbrick, thanks. ProfGray (talk) 13:26, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Can you appreciate that a substantial portion of editors are not familiar with "JE" as shorthand for Jewish Encyclopedia? Had you used the correct term, I probably would have been motivated to try to track it down.

I have emporarily restored the edits but I need more information. When I look at the citation and go to the bottom of the page I see:

©2002-2021, JewishEncyclopedia.com. All rights reserved

Can you confirm why you say it is public domain?

You mentioned that there's something relevant on your talk page. An experienced editor would provide me with a link not some vague directions that didn't work for me. S Philbrick(Talk) 14:19, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

I have now located the section you alluded to. S Philbrick(Talk) 14:33, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Yes, there's certainly no reason to assume general familiarity with "JE" even among ppl editing Judaism topics, since anybody can step in and help out. I'm sorry that the edit summary didn't work for you and, for sure, I can be an experienced editor who still does clumsy things.

Nonetheless, WP:JE is one of a bezilliion WP shortcuts and acronyms. Regardless, it be helpful to have guidance on edit summaries when using JE, since I'd rather not type it out every time. Not seeing any tips at Wikipedia:Jewish Encyclopedia topics and the examplar there does not even use edit summaries. So maybe we can collaborate on adding guidance there?

In terms of public domain: the edit summary of the revert itself had a link to the 1901 edition of the JE, so that's public domain. The version from JewishEncyclopedia.com is said to be from 1901-1906. While their website is recent ("2002-2021"), their website is merely a copy of the 1906 text and may be used. See discussion at: Wikipedia:Jewish Encyclopedia topics. Also, the edits that were reverted contain suitable copyright info:

• footnote #5 cites the 1906 edition.
• under "References" heading, there is a WP template that adds: "This article incorporates text from a publication now in the public domain..." etc

Hope this is helpful. Thanks for your work on this. ProfGray (talk) 14:51, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

I appreciate your contributions to Wikipedia. While my present state of mind is extreme annoyance let me start by emphasizing that some aspects of COPYPATROL Can be very annoying, and much of that annoyance comes from owners or websites that are often sloppy when it comes to use of public domain text. It is obviously acceptable for the owner of virtually any website to incorporate public domain text into their website. (If that website happens to be Wikipedia, there are also requirements such as attribution, but those don't automatically apply to other websites). It is commonplace and annoying when a website incorporates a substantial amount of public domain text, and then slaps a copyright notice at the bottom of the page, leaving the impression that the entire contents are subject to copyright. Sometimes they will have a terms of use sub page which emphasizes that some of the material is public domain but often times not.

The Copypatrol tool identified this site which you noted was in my revert.

You said:

the revert itself had a link to the 1901 edition of the JE

I'm being picky but do you literally mean a link? If so I didn't see it. I see a lot of content which purports to be from the 1901 edition but I haven't yet seen the source. At the bottom of the StudyLight page, they have the following notice:

StudyLight.org © 2001-2022

A not uncommon situation is that the owner slams a full copyright notice on the entire page and then modifies it elsewhere. In this case there is a sub page on rights and permissions:

Rights and Permissions

That section starts:

All materials contained on StudyLight.org are protected by copyright in the U.S. and other countries.

Very sloppy wording as it's not literally true

It does go on to say:

Articles credited to a source other than StudyLight.org are owned by that source.

One can presume that's a reference to the material in the 1901 Jewish encyclopedia, but I haven't yet found a link.

However it's not worth the time to analyze the sloppy handling by StudyLight.org. Even though that's the source identified by Copypatrol, we both now know that isn't where you found the material.

Your citation used [your citation used [https://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/14213-talmud this site}. Is that correct? Unfortunately, we have a similar problem.

As noted earlier they slap a broad copyright statement at the bottom of the page:

©2002-2021, JewishEncyclopedia.com. All rights reserved

They helpfully include a terms of use link, which brings you to this page. I did read every word of every clause but is a couple relevant sentences:

2.1 You will use the Service and any content, material, or information found on the Service solely for lawful, non-commercial purposes.

3.1 All content provided by JE.com on the Service is protected by copyright, trademark, and other applicable intellectual property and proprietary rights laws and is owned, controlled, and/or licensed by JE.com.

If the first sentence is true, then using this material cannot be used in the way public domain material can generally be used. The second sentence doesn't seem to be literally true.

I search for "public domain" to see if they had a carveout for public domain material. I don't see it.

I think the probability is high that the material you referenced will match material in either the 1901 or 1906 Jewish encyclopedia, but I'm not comfortable accepting a high probability event. How do I know that the passage you used is exactly the same as in the public domain text? It is quite common for owners of websites to incorporate old public domain text but make changes to it for a variety of reasons (modern spellings etc.) I don't see anything on the site explaining that the text I see is identical to the public domain text. I don't see anything in the terms of use that referred to any of the material on the site as being public domain.

You made specific reference to Wikipedia:Jewish Encyclopedia topics. That page includes the following advice:

When you have finished editing your article, add the  This article incorporates text from a publication now in the public domain: Singer, Isidore; et al., eds. (1901–1906). [... "..."]. The Jewish Encyclopedia. New York: Funk & Wagnalls. {{cite encyclopedia}}: Check |url= value (help) template.

You used a different template. Am I missing something?

I am happy to revert my removal when I'm convinced that the material you added is in the public domain. I'm not there yet, and I would like to know whether the template should be the recommended one or the one you used.S Philbrick(Talk) 15:39, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Question: "You used a different template. Am I missing something?"

A: I used a version of Template:Jewish Encyclopedia, which is what I used for the WP Menachot article that @Diannaa had contacted me about (link to discussion above). In that WP article, I used the general JE template and within the WP article there are references (footnotes) that include the authors of two different JE articles. Now noticing that there's also Template:Cite Jewish Encyclopedia to help make our lives more complicated.

You're doing a good service to protect WP from copyvio, so I hope I'm not adding to your annoyance.

To resolve the uncertainty about the use of JewishEncyclopedia.com as public domain source, maybe @Diannaa can respond or refer us to another copyvio editor. ProfGray (talk) 16:07, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Template:Jewish Encyclopedia is designed for use at the bottom of the article. Template:Cite Jewish Encyclopedia is a cite template for use as an inline citation. For the inline citation, it's important to please include the attribution template {{source-attribution}} as part of your citation, like I did here. Diannaa (talk) 16:14, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

@Sphilbrick The Jewish Encylopedia is public domain because it was published in 1901 through 1905. "This online version contains the unedited contents of the original encyclopedia" says the website. They can't claim to own the copyright Diannaa (talk) 16:22, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

The citation referred to this page. I searched for but did not find any affirmation that it was an unedited copy of the public domain encyclopedia. However now that I've looked at the main page, I do see the statement "This online version contains the unedited contents of the original encyclopedia." which satisfies me. I see that Dianna has commented on the use of templates. I think the best course of action is that you revert my revert when you're ready to simultaneously deal with the templates. I will monitor Copypatrol in case the reversion triggers a new report so that I can market as acceptable. If this some reason you prefer that I do the revert I can but I want to do it at a time that you can also address the template issue. S Philbrick(Talk) 19:10, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, I'd prefer and ask that you do the revert.

I will try to redo the attribution as needed, today. In any event, there's a difference between the urgency & vigilance needed for copyright violations and the more iterative patience that WP can have for this situation, which is to implement the correct template and referencing for a public domain text. It'd be appropriate to add a citation needed, or full citation template etc, on that text section, if you think the current attribution is inadequate. Thanks again, ProfGray (talk) 19:27, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Revert done. S Philbrick(Talk) 14:52, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the revert. Here's a diff of the first change, where I added the {{source-attribution}} template within the reference. @Diannaa@Sphilbrick -- does this look correct?

For the second change, I edited the JE text and removed the quotation marks. Does that seem fine, in terms of copyvio? When using the proper templates and source attribution, do we even need quotations marks for such public domain content that is copied over? Didn't seem that way in the JE wiki guidance. Thanks! ProfGray (talk) 16:39, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

No, I don't believe quotes are needed. S Philbrick(Talk) 18:29, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

Looks ok to me. Diannaa (talk) 20:26, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

Feedback request: Philosophy and religion Good Article nomination

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Your review of Kiddush Levana

Thank you for your comments on the Kiddush Levana article. I have spent quite a bit of time fixing citation format, adding secondary sources and trying to make it NPOV. I also added a section on non-Orthodox Judaism. Would you mind taking a look and letting me know what else should be done? Thanks very much. Dovidroth (talk) 13:32, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

yes, though best to discuss on the article's Talk page and "ping" me there, thanks! ProfGray (talk) 13:47, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Done, thanks! Dovidroth (talk) 15:38, 11 December 2024 (UTC)