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November 30

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November 30, 2020 (2020-11-30) (Monday)

Armed conflicts and attacks

Business and economy

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Science and technology

(Posted) RD: Hella Brock

[edit]
Article: Hella Brock (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): LVZ (in German subscription)
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Musicologist, internationally known as Grieg scholar, 101. The article was basically there, translated in May, I just made an external link to a ref and added 2 obits. More may come. Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:52, 1 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) RD: Irina Antonova

[edit]
Article: Irina Antonova (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Meduza (Russian edition)
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Added some references to the article, seems to have no major issues --Andrei (talk) 10:35, 1 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) RD: Ben Bova

[edit]
Article: Ben Bova (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Tor.com, SFWA
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Myself and Schazjmd worked to ud the page, they got the formal 'update' edit in Eddie891 Talk Work 21:53, 30 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support - looks in good enough shape to me.  — Amakuru (talk) 00:25, 1 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I'm not thrilled that for such a short bio, the biblography was previously shuffled off to a separate article. Yes, 100+ works is long, but I feel it would be better for that to be included in the bio page, and which would only need to add the necessary ISBNs for published works to complete referencing there. I won't oppose posting if that's not done here, but I just feel it's better overall if there's no reasonable way to expand the present article. --Masem (t) 01:54, 1 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    I would say the exact opposite. Articles that are mostly bibliography, compared to the amount of text, are a eyesore, and this seems like a neat way to have resolved that issue, with a summary remaining at the parent. Few will be interested in that great long list of works, but for the few that are, they now have a page to visit.  — Amakuru (talk) 09:33, 1 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, a giant in his field. On the afternoon when the first images from the Viking 1 Mars lander were printed in the newspapers in 1976 I showed him a front page (he hadn't seen the TV relay). Bova immediately said "Looks like New Jersey". Randy Kryn (talk) 02:02, 1 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Article looks fine for an RD even without the bibliography. Gotitbro (talk) 03:42, 1 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Posted - Dumelow (talk) 07:57, 1 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Attention Needed) AlphaFold

[edit]
Article: AlphaFold (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ DeepMind's AlphaFold achieves results in protein structure prediction comparable to laboratory determination techniques at CASP 2020 (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ DeepMind's AlphaFold breaks a significant barrier in solving the protein folding problem; a grand challenge in computational biology.
Alternative blurb II: ​ DeepMind's AlphaFold AI breaks a significant barrier in solving the protein folding problem.
Alternative blurb III: ​ The AI program AlphaFold successfully doubles the accuracy of computationally-predicted protein folding
News source(s): Nature New Scientist The Times Science Bloomberg Economist CASP press release Guardian BBC NY Times DeepMind blog
Credits:

Article updated

Nominator's comments: Article on DeepMind's Alpha Fold needs a lot of development, but this looks like a very big deal.
John Moult, organiser of CASP: "This is an enormous breakthrough. A 50-year-old grand challenge in computer science has been to a large degree solved." (Times). Andrei Lupas: "It’s a game changer. This will change medicine. It will change research. It will change bioengineering. It will change everything." (Nature). Venki Ramakrishnan 'said the achievement was stunning. “It has occurred decades before many people in the field would have predicted... it will fundamentally change biological research." (Times) The Times has been running this as top story on its website. Jheald (talk) 19:33, 30 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support. Comment. I wrote up a little bit about AlphaFold which you can use as the target article. It is currently a start-class article, but, will definitely require someone more knowledgeable to help expand before it can get to homepage levels. I can lend a hand later tonight. Edits and expansion to the article is completed. Article has shaped up well to a C-class article. I feel pretty good about it. Now, if folks can hash out news-readiness and the blurb, I think this is good to go :) Ktin (talk) 02:58, 1 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - Can we get a source from a reputable science journal that's NOT some pop science press release bullshit? If it's as groundbreaking as the scientists say it is, then they can get a peer reviewer to state that.--WaltCip-(talk) 20:38, 30 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • @WaltCip: Nature and Science are pretty much the top of the tree, as science news reporting goes. Venki Ramakrishnan is President of the Royal Society, a structural molecular biologist himself with a Nobel prize to prove it, and unaffiliated to both DeepMind and the competition. What speaks for AlphaFold are its results -- see eg the schematic from the article in Science for a sense of the degree to which AlphaFold has scored way better than has ever been achieved before, and done it across the full range of hundred or so structures that entrants were asked to try to solve. Also impressive is Lupas's testimony of how he gave AlphaFold one more sequence, which his team had been trying to understand for 10 years. Half an hour later came back a structure, which explained all the data they had been struggling with. The CASP conference continues until Thursday, so expect more comment and information and assesment to come. Automated structure prediction really has been seen as the 'holy grail' of structural biology for 50 years. CASP is a reputable competition and collaborative conference, the benchmark in the field, which has witnessed steady but slow improvements for 20 years. But this year AlphaFold has "annihilated" the challenges. That is why this news is getting such a reaction. Jheald (talk) 21:04, 30 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Clearly notable for an encyclopedia. I'd prefer the first blurb. --bender235 (talk) 00:01, 1 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support on article quality + significance but I yearn for a slightly more usable blurb (even with alt2). Its unfortunate these problems aren't as famous as the various math challenges where we could just name and point to them. But that's my only issue otherwise, article's been improved when I first peaked at it. --Masem (t) 01:23, 1 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support a variant of alt 2.  Nixinova   T   C   03:07, 1 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support blurb The original one that is. The target article could use some multimedia and expansion but is okayish. Gotitbro (talk) 04:23, 1 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Big scientific news. I think Alt-2 is the best option. Alexcalamaro (talk) 05:15, 1 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I won't oppose this, but we should be clear that this is a rather incremental improvement. It is marginally more accurate (against a curated database of empirical data) than previous computational approaches, while still not being able to solve all of the problems in the curated database, and certainly not all problems that arise outside of curation. The lede in the article gets this point across, but the blurb should do so as well, in a way that doesn't just handwave terms like "significant barrier".130.233.213.199 (talk) 07:59, 1 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
No. This builds on what has gone before, but it is more than just an "incremental improvement". Understand the scoring system here. 2018's score of 45 means that 45% of atoms were in more-or-less the right place. Which meant that 55% weren't. Which meant the 2018 predictions weren't accurate enough to be biologically useful. In contrast a score of 85-90 means that all but 10 to 15% of atoms are placed just where they should be. (And some of that remaining 10-15% may not have a stable position - in reality it may be a bit that flaps about). AlphaFold 2 is predicting structures accurately and robustly enough (and with well-calibrated estimates of local confidence), that its predictions are reliable enough to meaningfully understand the biological structure of the protein. That has never been consistently achieved before -- and AlphaFold is managing this across the full range of sequences it was presented with (with, as I understand it, just a single exception in the whole of the CASP test set). This is beyond a tipping point, it is revolutionary. In context: 90% position accuracy on this metric is as good as you can get from structures 'solved' with the best available experimental data. (For which people win prizes). And AlphaFold 2 is consistent achieving this, or getting damn close, across the board. Jheald (talk) 09:04, 1 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
People win those prizes because they are doing something truely novel: they are solving previously unknown structures. This is solving a subset of those already-solved structures, again, in the hopes that it might one day solve an unknown structure. The field has moved onto complex interactions and macrocomplexes, and single molecule folding has become a purely academic interest. Which isn't bad or disqualifying, it will have impacts regarding time and scale of certain projects, but "revolutionary" it is not. I have added an altblurb to reflect the meat and bones of the current news.130.233.3.185 (talk) 09:37, 1 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The algorithm didn't know the structures had been solved, nor did it use any of the information from those solutions. The whole point of the CASP test set is that it is designed to be a typical cross-section of proteins that is representative of proteins for which we have sequence data but no 3d structure. So solving a CASP protein is expected to be as difficult as solving a typical unknown sequence. Currently there are 200 million known protein sequences, with 30 million new sequences being added every year, compared to about 170,000 proteins with known structures. Typically it currently takes an entire PhD to solve one sequence, if you can get the experiments to work and if you can get the protein to crystallise and if you can make sense of the results - none of which are guaranteed. There was a protein (without a known structure) that Lupas's team gave as an 'extra' to AlphaFold, that they had been trying to understand for ten years. AlphaFold came back with a prediction that they were able to confirm explained their experimental data, and which they were able to tweak in 30 minutes to give a final structure. So AlphaFold has in fact already been used to solve completely unknown proteins. Yes, of course one wants to know the proteins interact with other molecules, how they function as molecular machines. But getting a structure is an essential prerequisite for this -- it is anything but a "purely academic interest".
Secondly to say that AlphaFold has "successfully doubled the accuracy of computationally-predicted protein folding" is to profoundly misinterpret the significance of what the AlphaFlow team has achieved. More relevant is that they have reduced the mismatch between the prediction and what experiment can reliably determine from almost half the protein to between nought and five percent. That is a step forward of truly huge significance. Previously predictions were not reliable or precise enough to inform biological understanding of the protein. Now, on the strength of the CASP competition results, they are. That is a sea change, as well as an extraordinary intellectual achievement. Jheald (talk) 12:20, 1 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per IP above. It sounds like the popular press has over-blown the significance of this. If Alt3 is correct, then it doesn't look like the sort of major breakthrough that would warrant ITN. Also, none of the Hooks give any indication of why this is important, to a nonspecialist.  — Amakuru (talk) 09:42, 1 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Amakuru, definitely respect your views. But, as a layperson, this is how I read it. Proteins -- linear structures of amino acids -- fold into 3D shapes and structures -- which eventually what causes them to express themselves and have the intended effects -- good / bad etc. So, for biologists to explore drug discovery / disease research etc -- they need the final structure that proteins take shape. But, the only way currently to do it accurately is via laboratory examinations. These lab examinations -- are time consuming and expensive. So, computational algorithms can do that. But, until now their accuracy levels were not up there. Now, accuracy levels have reached upwards of a score of 90 (lets say 90% just for this conversation, though there are some more nuances). Now suddenly, the algorithms become valuable as a way to determine these protein structures sans experimentation (x-ray crystallography etc.). So, the barrier between when algorithms become accurate enough to be truly valuable has been breached. Hence, this is important.
    PS: The above explanation is quite simplistic. But, this is the gist of what I have learnt as a layperson. Ktin (talk) 17:59, 1 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: I'm not an expert in AI or protein folding, but I know enough to realise that this is a major advance if the claims are true, definitely worth an ITN blurb. The issue is whether now is the right moment. I'm a bit hesitant that the researchers haven't published their results in a peer-reviewed paper, which is usually our threshold for science stories, but I suppose they were part of the community annual testing process so have at least had some scrutiny by experts. However they haven't publicly described the methods used yet, or released the algorithm. It's undeniably in the news now though. I'm therefore torn and refraining from !voting. Modest Genius talk 12:50, 1 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose – Obscure and arcane. It may be significant, but will be understood only by a specialized niche audience. Most readers won't have a clue about what "protein folding" is, much less what this development may signify. – Sca (talk) 13:40, 1 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Front page of The Times newspaper this morning with photo [1], plus two inside pages and leader. Do they really have such a higher opinion of their readers than we do of ours? And aren't encyclopedias here to inform people? Jheald (talk) 13:58, 1 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see it here at the moment. Anyway, the hoi polloi don't read The Times of London. – Sca (talk) 14:28, 1 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Pardon my French, but this is an asinine argument. Protein folding is the premier problem in computational biology. People unaware of its significance or implications can read the respective articles. As I wrote above, this achievement is clearly relevant for an encyclopedia, just as gravitational wave detection or the black hole image was before (both of which we featured on ITN). The number of readers who at the time knew what a gravitational wave was was probably hardly bigger than the ones you suspect knowing of protein folding now. --bender235 (talk) 05:03, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Most scientific discovery is incremental. To the extent that we ever see advancement quickly enough to qualify here, this nom is as good as it gets. GreatCaesarsGhost 17:48, 1 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Per Amakuru. Also, the body of the article hasn't been updated properly beside a small 3-line paragraph about the, uhh, "breakthrough". Also, also, I've also counted 7 yays and 4 nays as of right now, with nays becoming more frequent as time goes by, so I'm removing the ready tag for now. CoronaOneLove (talk) 17:58, 1 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@CoronaOneLove: we're not counting votes on Wikipedia. The embarrassingly uninformed statements of people unaware of the significance of this breakthrough can be safely ignored. This is easily the most important methodological discovery in biology since CRISPR gene editing a decade ago (and which won a Nobel just this year). --bender235 (talk) 04:40, 3 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Yet again, CRISPR and others win prizes because what they are doing is novel. This is partially solving, to a better degree than previously, already-solved problems. It's an extended machine learning training. I have a nearly-full career of "we've finally solved the protein folding problem" behind me; I don't make uninformed statements here, so you can kindly unstrike my alt blurb relating to the mathematical scoring of this competition.130.233.213.199 (talk) 05:58, 3 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Calling this merely an "improvement on an already-solved problem" is like saying AlphaGo beating Lee Sedol was only slightly better than beating a random 6-yr old at Go. And your claim isn't even plausible. If achieving 92% accuracy was that easy, why hasn't it occurred in the past 26 years of CASP already? --bender235 (talk) 17:35, 3 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Albertaont:. Please, notice that this is more than a press release. The results have been shown during the CASP meeting, solving previous unknown protein foldings with 90% accuracy. Even, an unknown folding, that a research group has been battling for ten years, has been solved as an "extrawork". All the results has been "peer reviewed", in a way by the jury, formed by top field experts. Also, this groundbreaking work is already In the news, as in Nature and Science, etc. Alexcalamaro (talk) 06:04, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

November 29

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November 29, 2020 (2020-11-29) (Sunday)

Armed conflicts and attacks

Arts and culture

Disasters and accidents

Health and environment

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Politics and elections

(Posted) RD: Papa Bouba Diop

[edit]
Article: Papa Bouba Diop (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): The Mirror, BBC Sport
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Senegalese footballer, notably in the UK with Fulham and Portsmouth. Article is generally good, a couple of missing cites I'll try to fix - Dumelow (talk) 18:35, 29 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Closed) RD: Vladimir Fortov

[edit]
Closed, oldest RD on the template is currently 30 November - Dumelow (talk) 10:17, 4 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: Vladimir Fortov (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Former head of the Russian academy of sciences. Died of Covid-19. --> --CoronaOneLove (talk) 08:32, 29 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(Posted) RD: David Prowse

[edit]
Article: David Prowse (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Darth Vader’s body and the Green Cross Code man. Stephen 07:37, 29 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The cn tags are the only the reason this isn't ready for RD (RD only requires articles to not have major issues like main tags etc. not their notability). Gotitbro (talk) 23:42, 29 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Gotitbro: I've tried to fix a few CN tags. Still needs a bit of work know. Govvy (talk) 00:55, 30 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@The Rambling Man: I always assume BLP stands for biography of living person! Unless you mean something else, so I am a bit confused by your oppose statement! :/ Govvy (talk) 00:55, 30 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Govvy, the recently deceased count under BLP. – Muboshgu (talk) 00:59, 30 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

November 28

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November 28, 2020 (2020-11-28) (Saturday)

Armed conflicts and attacks

Arts and culture

Disasters and accidents

Health and environment

International relations

Law and crime

Politics and elections

Sports

(Posted) RD: Shams Badran

[edit]
Article: Shams Badran (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): The Independent (Arabic edition)
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Not the longest of articles but I've given it a bit of a tidy and think it meets the requirements - Dumelow (talk) 08:18, 1 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) RD: Jean-Louis Servan-Schreiber

[edit]
Article: Jean-Louis Servan-Schreiber (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Le Monde
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: French press baron. Article is a little short but I've been working on an expansion - Dumelow (talk) 08:57, 30 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, I missed that one. Now added ISBN and OCLC - Dumelow (talk) 11:20, 30 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Koshebe massacre

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Article: Koshebe massacre (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ In the deadliest terrorist attack against civilians in Nigeria this year, 110 people are killed in Jere, Nigeria, by suspected Boko Haram militants. (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ 110 people are killed in Jere, Nigeria, by suspected Boko Haram militants in the the deadliest terrorist attack against civilians in Nigeria this year.
News source(s): [2]
Credits:

Article updated

 71.190.46.242 (talk) 19:27, 29 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That is not my point. My point is there have been much more deadly attacks by Boko Haram and none of them saw the light of the day at ITN. There was also an attack in Afghanistan just yesterday but that won't be here either. These are long-running conflicts (81 people were killed back in June), I am only asking how is this unusual in that for a blurb. Though I am tilting towards a support if the article is expanded a bit. Gotitbro (talk) 00:26, 30 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I am asking cause if we post we will be breaking from "precedent" here on ITN and would be opening up to more such articles in ongoing conflicts but would be perhaps for the good. Gotitbro (talk) 00:31, 30 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Point is this is the worst attack of the year. It's not humdrum, run of the mill weather that we keep insisting on posting. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 08:24, 1 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Like Gotitbro said, its definitely a stub for now. I can change this if it was shown that the attack was novel in some way, i.e. new organization, new tactics, better weaponry. I will revisit my vote as I do expect updates to be made to article. Albertaont (talk) 23:55, 29 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak supportComment 110 people murdered in one go? And we'd debate if that's newsworthy?? Yet happily post some wind that kills people every year, with startling regularity. I think ITNC is now officially out of kilter. Article could be improved a little. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 23:45, 29 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • That's not rude at all, and I welcome your question. I guess I would suggest that a single attack which kills more than 100 individuals in a country where this hasn't happened for a nomination that I can recall this year, I'd offer my support. Mass shootings in the US reached a point where they happen literally every day and like the "Atlantic hurricane season", we have to get used to the idea that when the "norm" is defined by whacky gun-toting idiots shooting a few people every day in the US or some wind routinely kills a few dozen people as it does every single year, we need to look for more to find something that is encylcopdeically significant. Cheers, feel free to ping me if you want to discuss this in more detail! The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 23:16, 30 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Neutral per the above. --HurricaneTracker495 (talk) 01:37, 30 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak oppose The blurb being phrased as "the deadliest so far this year" is not encouraging in terms of newsworthiness in context. Kingsif (talk) 04:42, 30 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose only on article quality. The blurb can be de-escalated, but the article seems rather weak if this is considered the deadliest such attack. It's clearly a ITN-post type event, but the quality should be improved. --Masem (t) 05:36, 30 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Agree that article quality is not suitable as yet. I could support if that is resolved. Pigeonholing the blurb needed to be fixed: "against civilians" - has there been larger crimes against non-civilians?; "in Nigeria" - presumably this was needed to exclude the 600+ dead in Ethiopia; "this year" - just how routine is such violence there? Might it be cleaner to post "110 people were killed in the largest Boko Haram attack since [year X] "?130.233.213.199 (talk) 06:55, 30 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support news: for **bleep**'s sake it is a massacre. How can it be 'oppose the news' for being not notable???--CyclonicallyDeranged (talk) 09:33, 30 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support because it's easily notable enough. Although many mass murders have occurred in Nigeria in recent years, this is the most deadly there for years (against any target), as well as one of the more deadly massacres in the world this year. The Gubio massacre was also easily notable enough for ITN, but that article is far too short for it to have had a chance of being posted. Jim Michael (talk) 12:34, 30 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Article is short, but well referenced and seems to have what is known so far. Topic is being covered adequately by reliable news sources. Checks all of the boxes. --Jayron32 12:38, 30 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose on article quality. Five sentences about the massacre itself. There is also detail in the lead which is both unreferenced and not mentioned anywhere else in the article. I don't think we post stubs with unreferenced material. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 13:05, 30 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
BBC from the in-article sources. "More than 43" and "dozens" and "about" and so on. The blurb will have to be worded to get this imprecision in casualties across. Note that this article revising the casualties does comes a few days after those publications claiming a precise 110.130.233.213.199 (talk) 06:07, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment – At 450 words the article seems rather thin for an event in which 110 people reportedly were killed. Much of the text is background and reactions; the massacre description totals 211 words. – Sca (talk) 13:57, 1 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Closed) Remove Ongoing: Tigray Conflict

[edit]
No consensus to remove at this time. Stephen 00:36, 3 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: Tigray conflict (talk · history · tag)
Ongoing item removal (Post)
 Two weeks ago, rockets were fired and missed. Since then: a claim, an ultimatum, and an order. I know from reading elsewhere that things are happening, but you'd not know it from our article. There is simply not enough there to keep this on the main page. GreatCaesarsGhost 13:16, 28 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Just yesterday pm announced he's sending in forces to end it. 2A02:2A57:173D:0:B525:8A17:4F58:B411 (talk) 13:35, 28 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Again, I'm not disputing that the EVENT is ongoing, but that the article fails to document this. GreatCaesarsGhost 15:17, 28 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support removal based on article's length. I agree that an item staying in ongoing for two weeks needs a substantially more extensive article with more frequent updates that go deeper into details than the one-sentence weekly reports coupled in a single paragraph.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 16:22, 28 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose The article has seen split-offs and other cut downs that is perhaps why its not looking up to the mark. Timeline of the Tigray conflict and other related articles (see Category:Tigray conflict) are receiving significant updates and not everything has to be in the main article. Though I agree that the main article needs work that is no reason for an ongoing removal especially when the conflict is clearly ongoing, in the news and while taking these other articles into account. Gotitbro (talk) 17:55, 28 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment – "Ethiopian PM claims capture of Tigray capital." – Sca (talk) 20:16, 28 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose until the conflict is definitely over. Banedon (talk) 20:42, 28 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Still ongoing. – Ammarpad (talk) 05:22, 29 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment At least one side of this conflict considers it over now. If this turns into a familiar, low-level intercene insurgency, it should definitely go. Article is absolutely too short to convey the sort of significance that people seem to think that it does.130.233.213.199 (talk) 06:59, 30 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support removal of this article. This article itself is not receiving enough updates to qualify for main page ongoing status. If there is a different article that has been receiving updates, please suggest that one to swap out with this one. The conflict may be being covered by news sources, but the article as linked on the main page is not a good representation of that, and should not still be linked unless and until it is. --Jayron32 12:41, 30 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. It would be rather odd to remove the entry just at the precise moment when matters are coming to a head. The battle for Mekelle ended two days ago, and perhaps that's the end of the story, but it's still ITN for the moment and we can re-evaluate in a few days time.  — Amakuru (talk) 13:31, 30 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment – On Nov. 30 Spiegel reported that in Tigray "tens of thousands of people are fleeing massacres, looting and rape to Sudan." – Sca (talk) 14:08, 30 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
PS: Also on Nov. 30, AlJazeera said "more than 43,000 [Tigrayans] have fled to neighbouring Sudan." – Sca (talk) 16:35, 30 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

November 27

[edit]
November 27, 2020 (2020-11-27) (Friday)

Armed conflicts and attacks

Business and economy

Health and environment

Law and crime

Politics and elections

(Posted) RD: Tony Hsieh

[edit]
Article: Tony Hsieh (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Las Vegas Review Journal, Associated Press, NPR, The Washington Post, The Guardian
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: American internet entrepreneur. Article seems adequate, I added one or two missing refs - Dumelow (talk) 08:59, 28 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Spencer, thanks to your NYT link, paragraph added about Zappos which was indeed extraordinary. -SusanLesch (talk) 18:29, 28 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) RD/Blurb: Mohsen Fakhrizadeh

[edit]
Article: Mohsen Fakhrizadeh (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination
Blurb:  Mohsen Fakhrizadeh, Iran's top nuclear scientist, is killed in an apparent assassination. (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ Mohsen Fakhrizadeh, Iran's top nuclear scientist, is killed in a roadside attack.
News source(s): NPR, CNN. AP, BBC, Reuters
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: He was considered Iran's top nuclear scientist, an important distinction for a country with a "controversial" nuclear program. Article appears to be adequately sourced.  Bait30  Talk 2 me pls? 17:45, 27 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Not flashing here. Just a headline. 2A02:2A57:173D:0:B525:8A17:4F58:B411 (talk) 13:40, 28 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

You said he was killed. That IS an assassination. 2A02:2A57:173D:0:B525:8A17:4F58:B411 (talk) 13:39, 28 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose Are we really taking state media claims at face value and blurbing them now? Did someone else even verify the killing/assassination or even the death? And can someone confirm if he actually was as instrumental to the Iranian nuclear program as is being portrayed in the media. Seems like media and political hype to me and not encyclopedic ITN material. Gotitbro (talk) 20:10, 27 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Convinced about his stature and that the death isn't being doubted. But only a confirmed assassination would make this blurb worthy. I would vote Support for RD and Wait for blurb but the article is too poor/stubby for either of them, so my oppose stands. Gotitbro (talk) 23:13, 27 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Gotitbro I'm completly agree with you. We must Wait before Blurb, but Support RD, until further consecuencies, if there are, that I'am afraid that will be. Alsoriano97 (talk) 12:58, 28 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed, this is not even RD worthy let alone a blurb (that is even if it was notable). Gotitbro (talk) 23:13, 27 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed, at least lets have 1 article that may turn out to be RD worthy JW 1961 Talk 23:21, 27 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Saying the obvious There are more sources and the article is better developed than all but 1 of the RDs posted right now. Albertaont (talk) 06:48, 28 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

November 26

[edit]
November 26, 2020 (2020-11-26) (Thursday)

Armed conflicts and attacks

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Health and environment

International relations

Law and crime

Politics and elections

(Posted) RD: George H. Carley

[edit]
Article: George H. Carley (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Associated Press
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: American judge. Article looks reasonably good - Dumelow (talk) 09:02, 28 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) RD: F. C. Kohli

[edit]
Article: F. C. Kohli (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): New Indian Express
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Father of Indian IT industry. Padma Bhushan awardee. Article requires citations for the positions held and honors section. Also, some effort in streamlining content. I will work on these changes, unless someone wants to lend a hand. All edits and minor expansion done. Looks good to go to homepage / RD. RIP Mr Kohli. Ktin (talk) 19:36, 26 November 2020 (UTC) Ktin (talk) 15:53, 26 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) RD: Sadiq al-Mahdi

[edit]
Article: Sadiq al-Mahdi (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Al-Jazeera, Reuters, NPR
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: This is Sudan's last democratically elected prime minister before he was toppled in a 1989 coup. COVID-19-related, so it needs to expand. 36.68.190.244 (talk) 09:51, 26 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

* Change to Support - nice job fixing this article JW 1961 Talk 23:35, 28 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

November 25

[edit]
November 25, 2020 (2020-11-25) (Wednesday)

Armed conflicts and attacks

Health and environment

Law and crime

Politics and elections

Sports

(Posted) RD: Edward Lazear

[edit]
Article: Edward Lazear (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): New York Times
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: American labor economist; Death announced on this date. Further edits and expansion including the labor and personnel economics and other research sections completed. Article is good, well referenced, and clean. Ready to go to homepage / RD. Solid C-class biography. Ktin (talk) 22:17, 27 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Closed) RD: Flor Silvestre

[edit]
Closed, most recent RD on the template is now 26 Nov - Dumelow (talk) 08:00, 1 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: Flor Silvestre (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Billboard
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Mexican singer and actress. Article seems in good shape. Died on 25 November. Alsoriano97 (talk) 23:44, 26 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(Posted) RD: José de Bastos

[edit]
Article: José de Bastos (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Benfica
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Portuguese football goalkeeper with Benfica. I've expanded and tidied a bit. A little short, but probably sufficient - Dumelow (talk) 09:49, 26 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) RD: Jacque Secrétin

[edit]
Article: Jacques Secrétin (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): France Bleu
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: French table tennis player. I am working to expand the article - Dumelow (talk) 08:59, 26 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) RD: Markus Paul

[edit]
Article: Markus Paul (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): USA Today
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: American football coach on the Dallas Cowboys coaching staff and former player. Was erroneously reported to have died on November 24. He was confirmed to have died November 25.  Bait30  Talk 2 me pls? 03:14, 26 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) RD: James Wolfensohn

[edit]
Article: James Wolfensohn (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): NYTimes
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Australian-American Banker. Former World Bank President. Article will require edits, largely around fixing [citation needed] tags which have now been added. Citation tags have been fixed. Further edits and expansion done. Looks a clean B-class biography. Good to go to homepage / RD, imo. Ktin (talk) 02:14, 26 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) 2020 Japan Series

[edit]
Proposed image
Article: 2020 Japan Series (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ In baseball, the Fukuoka SoftBank Hawks defeat the Yomiuri Giants to win their fourth-straight Japan Series (MVP Ryoya Kurihara pictured). (Post)
News source(s): The Japan Times, The Mainichi, AP
Credits:

Article updated
The nominated event is listed on WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.

 --TorsodogTalk 18:02, 25 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support Well sourced, lots of prose, fitting the template of past years. In a normal year, I would've worked on this page with Torsodog and would be a co-nom, but it's 2020. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:17, 25 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Again?! I'm starting to wonder whether this league deserves its ITNR listing if it's always won by the same team. In the last four years the Hawks have won the Japan Series 4-0, 4-0, 4-1 and 4-2 (in games). They won two of the previous three years too, so 6 of the last 7 championships overall. That does not suggest a competitive league. Modest Genius talk 18:32, 25 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The Boston Celtics once won 12 championships in 14 years.331dot (talk) 18:41, 25 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Anyway, is there any evidence that fans and/or the media are less interested? 331dot (talk) 18:42, 25 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
You can't just look at the winner of the Japan Series to determine the competitiveness of an entire league. While the Hawks do happen to be a powerhouse at the moment, you must also take into account that NPB's playoff system is designed specially so that the best regular-season teams advance. That isn't how MLB's and other leagues playoff formats are necessarily designed. --TorsodogTalk 20:41, 25 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
It's a nonsense argument. Manchester United won the Premier League something like 13 times in 21 years but no-one has ever suggested that the PL is not a competitive league. Try again. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 21:16, 25 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) Lithuanian PM

[edit]
Proposed image
Articles: Ingrida Šimonytė (talk · history · tag) and Prime Minister of Lithuania (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ Ingrida Šimonytė takes office as the new Prime Minister of Lithuania, becoming the second woman to do so. (Post)
News source(s): [5]
Credits:

Article updated
One or both nominated events are listed on WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.

 98.116.81.188 (talk) 22:28, 25 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Isn't ITNR for the office holders? I've gone ahead bolded Šimonytė as that is what it should be and what the nominator likely meant. Gotitbro (talk) 23:33, 25 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) Diego Maradona

[edit]
Posted, albeit quickly, and will remain posted. Stephen 00:38, 26 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: Diego Maradona (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ Former Argentine football player Diego Maradona dies at the age of 60. (Post)
News source(s): BBC
Credits:
Nominator's comments: Diego Maradona is one of the greatest football players of all time, as well as a being who is essentially worshipped across all of Latin America. As such, I think he meets the Mandela/Thatcher standard. NorthernFalcon (talk) 16:37, 25 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment What about a pic of him?. I'm really shocked by his death btw. Alsoriano97 (talk) 16:53, 25 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Yep, a pic is up there now, the article's main 2012 image. We can't use any of the older ones from his playing days unfortunately, as they all seem to be marked as ineligible under US copyright law even though they're public domain in Argentina. And should probably even be removed from the article as they are liable to be deleted from Commons.  — Amakuru (talk) 17:00, 25 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Post-posting support. I don't think this was too fast, I cannot envision another outcome than a blurb. A RD is definitely too little for a player like this. Regards SoWhy 16:54, 25 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
If is possible to post something too fast, then 8 minutes is too fast. The argument for waiting is giving others a chance to see and weigh in; either that is a thing we value or it is not. Guessing that other editors will agree may get you in trouble (see RBG). GreatCaesarsGhost 17:13, 25 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(Posted) RD: Ahmed Patel

[edit]
Article: Ahmed Patel (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): India Today
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Indian politician. COVID-19. Edits reasonably done. Meets basic hygiene requirements. Ktin (talk) 02:00, 25 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

November 24

[edit]
November 24, 2020 (2020-11-24) (Tuesday)

Armed conflicts and attacks

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Politics and elections

(Closed) RD: Bruce Boynton

[edit]
Closed, most recent RD on the template is now 26 Nov - Dumelow (talk) 07:59, 1 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: Bruce Boynton (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): NPR
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: American civil rights leader. AleatoryPonderings (???) (!!!) 04:42, 26 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Personal details are incomplete: missing date of birth, Early Life has more details on his parents than the subject himself. Potentially COPYVIO: entire sentences are lifted from sources verbatim, seems especially problematic with the sources 2 & 3, which are used in this manner throughout.130.233.213.199 (talk) 08:31, 26 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Date of birth is good but not mandatory. Also, I just ran the Earwig tool, and I dont find something egregious. [6] There is the quote from the judge (which obviously has to be verbatim). Yes, there can be some expansion on early life + career, if information is available. Good luck. Ktin (talk) 15:13, 26 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: Legal career needs expansion. A quick look at sources mentions that he was the lawyer in the Mapp v. Board of Education case that de-segregated Chattanooga schools. Possible sources include [7], [8], [9]. SpencerT•C 18:24, 26 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(Posted) RD: Mamadou Tandja

[edit]
Article: Mamadou Tandja (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): ABC News
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Former Nigerien president. Doesn't seem to be anything major missing - Dumelow (talk) 11:10, 25 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) RD: Fred Sasakamoose

[edit]
Article: Fred Sasakamoose (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): CBC
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Canadian ice hockey player. Recognised as the first indigenous NHL player, and later served decades in a political role in his community. Article has been updated to reflect his life. Kaiser matias (talk) 03:17, 25 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Taken care of. Kaiser matias (talk) 06:38, 25 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) RD: Christophe Dominici

[edit]
Article: Christophe Dominici (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): BBC
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Pretty much legendary French rugby player. Article is mostly unreferenced right now... The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 07:49, 25 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) RD: Alan Ramsey

[edit]
Article: Alan Ramsey (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): SMH
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Australian journalist. Edits done. Solid C-class biography. Looks good for homepage / RD. Ktin (talk) 22:19, 24 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Mai Kadra massacre

[edit]
Article: Mai Kadra massacre (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ The Ethiopian Human Rights Commission reports [confirms] that at least 600 people were killed in a massacre in the town of Mai Kadra amidst a conflict in the Tigray Region. (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ At least 600 people are confirmed to have been killed in a massacre in the town of Mai Kadra amidst a conflict in the Tigray Region.
News source(s): Addis Standard Reuters Washington Post Al Jazeera
Credits:

Article updated

Nominator's comments: Confirmed mass atrocity. Doubtlessly newsworthy. Will work on an article for the EHRC if necessary. Varavour (talk) 17:06, 24 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Striking oppose for now. If the Amnesty report cited above is independent of the EHRC and is reported on separately then I think this demands attention, but the blurb needs to be updated to reflect that. Gotitbro (talk) 21:33, 24 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I am tilting towards support but both the blurbs don't do justice. The first makes it seems as if only the EHRC has verified the massacre and the second takes the EHRC's 600 number at face value (Amnesty does not confirm them and gives vague estimates). Need a better blurb to judge this. Gotitbro (talk) 05:07, 25 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support despite being on ongoing, a massacre of 600+ people demands attention. ~ Destroyeraa🌀 21:46, 24 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak support it's "stale" but I guess we just found out about it and the article is much better than the rubbish currently featured in ongoing --LaserLegs (talk) 21:56, 24 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support A massacre of 600 people aimed at ethnic cleansing is not something that we see frequently. Despite the conflict being already posted to ongoing, this is an event that merits a blurb on its own.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 22:21, 24 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Well it has been reported by the Xinhua (even though Sca has removed that link) so it isn't just NATOist atrocity propaganda, although the involvement of amnesty international is concerning. Support on notability, though I'd love to references to organizations that are not paid off by Washingtonian think-tanks that certify the measure of 600+ deahts as plausible CoronaOneLove (talk) 00:56, 25 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
PS: Story has been mostly absent from primary Eng.-lang. RS sites. However, today Reuters says "African envoys" headed for Ethiopia to investigate. – Sca (talk) 14:17, 25 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Um what? Neither is Ethiopia/TPLF a member of or connected to the NATO nor is the Xinhua report critical of the Ethiopian government (attributed to the TPLF and China enjoys rather good relations with Ethiopia which is why Xinhua was being opposed/subsequently removed). Gotitbro (talk) 04:57, 25 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I think he's trying to say that it could be agitprop for NATO to intervene in Ethiopia. They're already right next door. In any case he negated his own point.130.233.213.199 (talk) 06:26, 25 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose This happened over two weeks ago. Could have supported a nom for it then, but if you consider ITN this would have aged off the list by now. And this is already part of "ongoing". Albertaont (talk) 02:45, 25 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support news: massacre. Also the blurbs are fine.--CyclonicallyDeranged (talk) 05:21, 25 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose, sadly. The motivating factor for our posting this seems to be the declaration by members of Ethiopia's government. This was in the news 12-14 November, from Amnesty and other international groups. I would have strongly supported then, regardless of whether it was in Ongoing or not. As it is, it is stale, and the declarations by political figures are covered by Ongoing.130.233.213.199 (talk) 06:25, 25 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The further announcement by the government has only lead to more recent coverage than the initial reports by other organizations. Gotitbro (talk) 06:45, 25 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support even though late, still a major disaster resulting in the deaths of hundreds. The fact that it's late doesn't really mean anything, as these things often take a while to be reported on. Gex4pls (talk) 20:40, 25 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment wondering what is holding this news back. Two other news, one about baseball and one on a new political leader, in my opinion are less important news than this. Then a third "news" which is really an RD on surprise yawn surprise football. This news on a massacre is important.--CyclonicallyDeranged (talk) 06:51, 26 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose – Independent confirmation remains dubious. No longer in the RS news. – Sca (talk) 13:44, 26 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Closed) Chang'e 5

[edit]
It looks like nom was pre-mature, without getting into the merits itself. Short mission so can re-nom once it gets to the moon. Albertaont (talk) 23:03, 24 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Proposed image
Article: Chang'e 5 (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ China launches Chang'e 5, the first lunar sample-return mission in more than 40 years. (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ China launches Chang'e 5, the country's first lunar sample-return mission.
News source(s): ABC News
Credits:

Article updated
Nominator's comments: Big news. Don't want space news? CyclonicallyDeranged (talk) 16:59, 24 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. The arrival of the probe at its destination will be WP:ITNR. 331dot (talk) 17:08, 24 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Per how we've framed space exploration events in ITNR and the shortness of this mission, the better point to post this, presuming a successful mission, will be on Dec 16-17th after it has returned from the moon with samples, the end of a successful lunar sampling mission. While getting to the moon is arguably an ITNR "getting to its destination" its not going to spend much time there and thus might as well wait for the return. Would be willing to consider if it gets to the moon then fails, as that Indian moon lander had done, as a post as well. --Masem (t) 17:11, 24 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment – Agree with Masem. Let's wait & see if it succeeds in bringing back moon rocks or green cheese.
    – Sca (talk) 19:26, 24 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. In addition to the above statements, if any of you is holding the pen on this article -- please fix the article for tense. E.g. most portions of the article is written as "launch is expected on November 24". Also, a dedicated prose section on the mission is required. E.g. section from the most recent mission to the ISS here. Good luck. Ktin (talk) 19:33, 24 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Article quality is insufficient for main page. Several parts have not been updated and still speak of the launch as taking place in the future. If those issues are fixed, consider this a full support without having to ping me to make me change my vote again. --Jayron32 19:55, 24 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Fixed the time sensitive part. Can't find other time sensitive sentences. Someone else can help fix them if they bother to. Makes it more difficult when I hadn't written any part of the article. Right now I wish to log off. It also seems some people only prefer a space news when a mission becomes successful. Hhhmmmmm...--CyclonicallyDeranged (talk) 20:22, 24 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
People want something substantial to be there in the blurb (failed launch, failed/successful landing, return etc.) rather than simply a barebones launch. Gotitbro (talk) 21:38, 24 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
An ITNR is the successful launch of a new rocket, but this doesn't seem to be a new rocket. It's a mission with a rather short term (3-4 weeks) end so it seems better to wait for that point. --Masem (t) 21:41, 24 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(Posted) David Dinkins

[edit]
Article: David Dinkins (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): The New York Daily News, BBC, Guardian
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Former mayor of New York City. 173.50.80.42 (talk) 05:13, 24 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

November 23

[edit]
November 23, 2020 (2020-11-23) (Monday)

Armed conflicts and attacks

Health and environment

International relations

Law and crime

Politics and elections

Science and technology

Sports

(Posted) RD: John Oldham (basketball)

[edit]
Article: John Oldham (basketball) (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Courier-Journal
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: American basketball player and coach. Looks reasonable, I did some tidying up and referencing - Dumelow (talk) 11:56, 25 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Amakuru, I've added a lead - Dumelow (talk) 12:38, 25 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted): Tarun Gogoi

[edit]
Article: Tarun Gogoi (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): The Times of India The Hindu
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Former chief minister of Assam, India. Senior leader of a national party. ƬheStrikeΣagle 16:44, 23 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. Article is good to go to homepage / RD. Meets hygiene expectations. Ktin (talk) 05:36, 24 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) Booker Prize

[edit]
Article: Shuggie Bain (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ Douglas Stuart's Shuggie Bain wins the Booker Prize. (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ Douglas Stuart's debut novel Shuggie Bain wins the Booker Prize.
News source(s): NYTimes Guardian
Credits:

Article updated
The nominated event is listed on WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.

Nominator's comments: Booker prize is an ITNR event. Do not recollect seeing a nomination here. The book page has been bolded, please feel free to change that. How are plot summaries sourced? I do not see any sourcing for plot summary in the book's page. Ktin (talk) 09:38, 23 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) RD: Patrick Quinn

[edit]
Article: Patrick Quinn (ALS activist) (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Guardian NY Times
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: ALS advocacy activist. Page created and updated. Shaped up to a clean C-class biography. Happy to build further if needed. Ktin (talk) 01:52, 23 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

November 22

[edit]
November 22, 2020 (2020-11-22) (Sunday)

Armed conflicts and attacks

Health and environment

International relations

Law and crime

Politics and elections

(Posted) RD: Maurice Setters

[edit]
Article: Maurice Setters (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): The Guardian
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: English footballer (West Brom, Man United, Stoke) and manager (Doncaster). Can't do too much at the moment from my phone but I've added some missing citations and the rest looks OK - Dumelow (talk) 08:10, 24 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Wait: Ktin is right. I missed that sourcing issue in my quick look earlier and this should not be posted until rectified. I’ll see if I can take a look at finding some better sources tomorrow. Thanks for spotting this - Dumelow (talk) 23:21, 24 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Ready?: Ktin, I've given it a bit of an overhaul, replaced that source and expanded a little. Hopefully it should now be ready - Dumelow (talk) 10:56, 25 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Nice work Dumelow. I struck my oppose vote. Looks good to go to homepage / RD. Any chance you can find something about his early life and add that? That will nicely round up the bio. Wow, I searched for that, absolutely nothing that I could find on a quick search. That said, this is good to go to homepage in its current state. Ktin (talk) 16:07, 25 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) RD: Hamish MacInnes

[edit]
Article: Hamish MacInnes (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): The Scotsman
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Scottish mountaineer. Articke looks OK - Dumelow (talk) 07:59, 24 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) RD: Sidi Ould Cheikh Abdallahi

[edit]
Article: Sidi Ould Cheikh Abdallahi (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): The Standard (Kenya)
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Former Mauritanian president. I am travelling at the moment and can only edit from my phone but I've done a basic update on his death and the rest of the article looks acceptable - Dumelow (talk) 07:55, 24 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Can't have African leaders on the front-page you know. Gotitbro (talk) 06:41, 25 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) RD: Lupo (dog)

[edit]
Article: Lupo (dog) (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): The Independent
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Royal dog. Article looks OK. Death reported 22 November - Dumelow (talk) 08:28, 23 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Closed) Ongoing: 2020 US Presidential Election disputes

[edit]
Strong consensus against posting this. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 21:00, 22 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: Attempt to dispute the apparent results of the 2020 United States Presidential Election (talk · history · tag)
Ongoing item nomination (Post)
Credits:
Nominator's comments: Adding template LaserLegs (talk) 14:02, 22 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Could someone(s) knowledgeable with ITN criteria consider this article for inclusion? Feoffer (talk) 11:13, 22 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

As the legal challenges are not expected to accomplish anything, I think it is premature to consider this. 331dot (talk) 11:46, 22 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that it's premature to consider this even though it's been in the news for a while. We still don't know how this is going to end up, so it's reasonable to wait until something concrete happens.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 13:20, 22 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Possibly a subject for Ongoing, as it certainly is going on, and on, and on.... [10] [11] Article title is obviously way too long. – Sca (talk) 13:23, 22 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak Support until the EC votes. The MAGAts will never accept the results, but the legal challenges will cease after December 14. I think really it should be merged with MAGA terrorist attacks since it's all the same bat shit conspiracy theories and basement dwellers but on two separate tracks. --LaserLegs (talk) 14:06, 22 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose There is an issue if Trump refuses to transfer power come Jan 20 2021, but the attempts to dispute the election are mostly considered as jokes by political experts and the media until then. Yes, its all over the US news but only because it is slowing down the transition of power, but it is not "news news". (Also, and I can't put my finger on it exactly, but there's something that seems not NPOV on that article. For 2016, there was a section in the election article about post-election events and I feel this should be part of that, not standalone, and that would be part of the way to fix it). --Masem (t) 14:10, 22 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
It may not be "news news", but it is in fact "in the news" which is what we do around here ... --LaserLegs (talk) 14:27, 22 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
It is part of the media's overt focus on US politics that we have to purposely overlook as a global encyclopedia. --Masem (t) 15:37, 22 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
We do? Nifty, could you show me where that is in the guidelines I can't find it --LaserLegs (talk) 17:10, 22 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
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November 21

[edit]
November 21, 2020 (2020-11-21) (Saturday)

Armed conflicts and attacks

Health and environment

International relations

Law and crime

Politics and elections

Science and technology

(Posted) RD: Devi Priya

[edit]
Article: Devi Priya (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): The Hindu
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Telugu language poet and journalist. Sahitya Akademi Award winner. Article has shaped up to a clean C-class biography. Will continue to expand. Done. Meets the hygiene requirements for homepage / RD in the current state. Ktin (talk) 00:46, 22 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Closed) 2020 Guatemalan protests

[edit]
I think we're done here, strong consensus against posting. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 23:14, 24 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: 2020 Guatemalan protests (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ More 7,000 gather at a protest in Guatemala which culminates in a part of the Congressional building being set on fire. (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ Arsonists attack and damage the Guatemalan congressional building.
News source(s): AP
Credits:
 Still a stub. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 23:53, 21 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Still needs work but no longer a stub. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 00:35, 22 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I have added that the building was on fire for 10 minutes. But the length of time and amount of damage is immaterial. Would we ask this question if the Palace of Westminster was on fire for even 1 minute due to protests? --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 01:28, 22 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Yep. --LaserLegs (talk) 01:58, 22 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
[12] --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 09:46, 22 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I don't click Twitter links. When the extent of the damage is known, and the article reflects the same, as reported by reliable sources, let me know. --LaserLegs (talk) 14:09, 22 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

*Wait A lot of protests are happening worldwide because of the pandemic and I think only especially notable ones should be blurbed. I can't really gauge the whole protest scene here at the moment and would like to see if they sustain or grow (though even then a better place would probably be the Ongoing section). Gotitbro (talk) 10:14, 22 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose Petered out very quick. Gotitbro (talk) 02:35, 24 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(Posted) RD: Oliver Friggieri

[edit]
Article: Oliver Friggieri (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Times of Malta
Credits:

Article needs updating
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Maltese renowned poet and writer. Alsoriano97 (talk) 23:29, 21 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

November 20

[edit]
November 20, 2020 (2020-11-20) (Friday)

Armed conflicts and attacks

Arts and culture

Business and economy

Health and environment

International relations

Law and crime

Politics and elections

(Closed) RD: Judith Jarvis Thomson

[edit]
Stale. SpencerT•C 23:12, 24 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: Judith Jarvis Thomson (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): MIT
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
 Count Iblis (talk) 16:58, 22 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(Posted) RD: Ajay Desai

[edit]
Article: Ajay Desai (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): The Hindu
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Indian wildlife conservationist focusing on studying wild elephant behavior and human-wildlife conflicts. Article has shaped up to a good C-class biography. Meets homepage / RD requirements in the current state. Ktin (talk) 21:10, 21 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) RD: Jorge Horacio Brito

[edit]
Article: Jorge Horacio Brito (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Bloomberg
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Argentine banker. Saw the news on the Bloomberg ticker. Article is well referenced and seems alright and can benefit from a round of copy edits and checks for citations. I will do that once I am done for the day here. Ktin (talk) 00:56, 21 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Closed) RD: Rita Sargsyan

[edit]
Stale. SpencerT•C 23:12, 24 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: Rita Sargsyan (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): (Armradio)
Credits:

Article needs updating
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Former First Lady of Armenia as the wife of powerful President Serzh Sargsyan. COVID-19 death. Article needs work. Alsoriano97 (talk) 00:22, 21 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(Posted) RD: Irinej, Serbian Patriarch

[edit]
Article: Irinej (Serbian Patriarch) (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Reuters, BBC
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Serbian Patriarch, spiritual leader of Eastern Orthodox Serbs. --DragonFederal (talk) 07:16, 20 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Closed) RD: Kirby Morrow

[edit]
Stale. SpencerT•C 23:12, 24 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: Kirby Morrow (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): TheWrap
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Suggestions for improvement are welcome to make it possible to post. Rusted AutoParts 00:44, 20 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(Posted) RD: Jan Morris

[edit]
Article: Jan Morris (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): BBC
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

 Jheald (talk) 20:09, 20 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support Looks quite a bit better, not least thanks to Dumelow. Yakikaki (talk) 19:17, 21 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Works can be expanded, though it is fine for an RD even without them in prose. But most of the bibliography is unsourced, @Jheald: please cite it. Otherwise an interesting bio that deserves an RD spot. Gotitbro (talk) 22:08, 20 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Support While I don't think it was necessary to spin-off the bib, the article does appear fine now. Gotitbro (talk) 18:19, 21 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

November 19

[edit]
November 19, 2020 (2020-11-19) (Thursday)

Armed conflicts and attacks

Health and environment

International relations

Law and crime

Politics and elections

Science and technology

  • Citing safety concerns, the National Science Foundation announces that the 57-year-old Arecibo Observatory in Puerto Rico will be decommissioned. Earlier this month, a second cable supporting the 900-ton instrument platform snapped. The platform is suspended 450 feet (137 meters) above the fixed radio dish, which is 1,000 feet (305 meters) in diameter. (NSF)

(Posted) RD: Digamber Hansda

[edit]
Article: Digamber Hansda (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Avenue Mail (Jharkhand) Dainik Jagran
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Indian tribal activist and Santhali language litterateur. Padma Shri awardee. Expanded the article. Has shaped up to a nice C-class biography. Ready to go to homepage / RD. Ktin (talk) 07:00, 21 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) RD: Alexander Dubyanskiy

[edit]
Article: Alexander Dubyanskiy (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): The Hindu
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Russian academic, expert on the Tamil language. Article may be a little short but otherwise reasonable Dumelow (talk) 09:19, 20 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Well spotted, I've transferred it across using Commons Helper - Dumelow (talk) 10:44, 20 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Ktin, looks like someone removed the uncited material that was added - Dumelow (talk) 10:03, 21 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Dumelow: Looks good to go to homepage / RD. Nice nomination. Ktin (talk) 14:14, 21 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) RD: Stan Trafford

[edit]
Article: Stan Trafford (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Stoke Sentinel
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Port Vale football forward. Article's a little on the short side but includes everything I could find. Date of death not reported but death announced on 19 November - Dumelow (talk) 08:29, 20 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) RD: John Poole (footballer, born 1932)

[edit]
Article: John Poole (footballer, born 1932) (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Port Vale FC
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: English goalkeeper for Port Vale and Macclesfield. I've tidied the article up a little but it was in reasonably good condition. Death date not found but was announced on 19 November - Dumelow (talk) 08:13, 20 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Closed) RD: Khadim Hussain Rizvi

[edit]
Stale. SpencerT•C 23:11, 24 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: Khadim Hussain Rizvi (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Dawn
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Suggestions for improvement are welcome to make it possible to post. Depressed Desi (talk) 20:04, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(Closed) Thai Protests for Ongoing

[edit]
(non-admin closure) No consensus to post to ongoing. ~ Destroyeraa🌀 16:08, 23 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: 2020 Thai protests (talk · history · tag)
Ongoing item nomination (Post)
News source(s): The Beeb, CNN, New York Times, NPR The Diplomat
Credits:
Nominator's comments: This has been a rather long-ranging story which has lasted most of the year, but the past several weeks have featured some escalations, and news organizations are starting to move the story to the top of their reports. NPR ran it as a top story on Morning Edition this morning, for example. The article is relatively comprehensive without being excessive, though it suffers from some style issues (primarily WP:PROSELINE), it is also well referenced. Time to take the temperature on putting this one into Ongoing. --Jayron32 18:41, 19 November 2020 (UTC) Jayron32 18:41, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Support I see updates about government actions in there and putting this on ongoing doesn't hurt (for "ongoing protests" anyway). Also, thank Bagumba making me reconsider this. Gotitbro (talk) 10:11, 20 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Ongoing democracy struggles will always be more encyclopedic for me than the trite WP:MINIMUMDEATHS blurbs and "commonplace" natural disasters.—Bagumba (talk) 00:11, 20 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - per above, and reasons for removal last week. This has been rumbling on for months now and the updates we're seeing don't look like major new developments likely to change the picture. There are lots of newsworthy stories in the world that are "ongoing" in a very long-term sense, including Brexit, climate change, and even the US presidential election which still seems to be generating headlines. But that is not what Ongoing is for, it's for when frequent significant changes are happening over a shortish period, each of which would be a contender for its own blurb if nominated individually.  — Amakuru (talk) 10:32, 20 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, per Bagumba. There has been renewed coverage in the Anglophone press recently. —Brigade Piron (talk) 11:40, 20 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose at present. In the past 10 days, article only has moderately detailed coverage for just Nov 17th. Based on article updates, this isn't regular or impactful enough to justify Ongoing placement at present. SpencerT•C 03:33, 21 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose A couple thousand people show up to protest in a city of over 10 million? We mind as well post the MAGA march if thats the new standard. Albertaont (talk) 07:54, 21 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(Posted) Brereton report

[edit]
Article: Brereton Report (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ The Brereton Report is released, showing Australian troops committing war crimes during the war in Afghanistan, including murdering at least 39 civilians. (Post)
News source(s): Guardian, ABC , News.com.au, stuff.co.nz
Credits:

Nominator's comments: I'm putting back the original nominator of this article who nominated a genuine article for ITN and the ITN nomination should not have been removed in the first place.--CyclonicallyDeranged (talk) 06:08, 22 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Re-nominating per another user, a lot less pointy. ~ Destroyeraa🌀 17:14, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This is not true, covered under international sections by most major newspapers around the world. Gotitbro (talk) 07:59, 20 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Invalid oppose in any case. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 09:56, 20 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Here's Dutch and French coverage which appeared on 19 November. It's not just an Anglophone story. —Brigade Piron (talk) 11:35, 20 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Pinging Spencer. Gotitbro (talk) 22:20, 20 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
There's no time pressure, if posted now it would still be the top item on the template, both this and Arecibo Observatory are 19 November stories - Dumelow (talk) 10:16, 21 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Not clear cut consensus at this point; willing to have the nomination run a little bit longer. SpencerT•C 22:41, 21 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Oi!!! Admins!!!! This was marked ready 27 hours ago!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! HiLo48 (talk) 22:16, 22 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

And an admin weighed in - Spencer - indicating consensus does not exist to post. There are currently 7.5 or 8 supports to 6 oppositions. GreatCaesarsGhost 00:13, 23 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) Decommissioning of the Arecibo Observatory

[edit]
Article: Arecibo Observatory (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ Following catastrophic cable failures, the National Science Foundation announces the decommissioning of the Arecibo Observatory in Puerto Rico. (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ National Science Foundation announces the decommissioning of the Arecibo Observatory in Puerto Rico.
News source(s): The Verge, Science
Credits:

Article needs updating

Nominator's comments: Unusual event and the end of a major 57-year piece of equipment that had contributed to much of our understanding of space. Article needs a bit more updating to explain the events of last few days (second cable failure + decision of NSF in the body). Masem (t) 16:46, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Post posting support Nice to see some science related ITN after quite sometime which is clearly about an important topic. Gotitbro (talk) 19:44, 20 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) Hurricane Iota redux

[edit]
Posted. Article has been posted. No consensus for additional actions. Ktin (talk) 16:50, 21 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Proposed image
Article: Hurricane Iota (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ Hurricane Iota hits Central America, killing 43 people and leaving at least 41 missing. (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ Hurricane Iota kills over 43 people after hitting Nicaragua as a category 4 and Colombia as a category 5.
Credits:
Nominator's comments: I think that's enough deaths and damage. Look at the local news - its devastating. ~ Destroyeraa🌀 14:49, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I mean, Hurricane Harvey was the 3rd deadliest atlantic hurricane in 2017... Gex4pls (talk) 15:24, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Equal costliest on record: remarkable. This one? Not so. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 15:29, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not arguing against Harvey, but just because an atlantic hurricane season is remarkably deadly doesn't mean that the individual storms aren't. Put Iota in say, 2015, and this would probably easily get through. (plus, Many communities are still isolated by floodwaters and damaged infrastructure, so deaths are still being reported) Gex4pls (talk) 15:32, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
This is wholly unremarkable. I've said it before. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 15:36, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
With all the crap occurring in 2020, this news pales in comparison with all the other hurricane news in the past month.--CyclonicallyDeranged (talk) 16:12, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(Posted) RD: Margaret Guilfoyle

[edit]
Article: Margaret Guilfoyle (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Sydney Morning Herald, The Australian, Canberra Times
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Australia's first female finance minister. Died on the 11th but only made public today (refer Canberra Times article), not sure if this makes it "stale" or still okay to post. Ivar the Boneful (talk) 10:26, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

November 18

[edit]
November 18, 2020 (2020-11-18) (Wednesday)

Business and economy

Health and environment

International relations

Politics and elections

Sports

(Posted) RD: Arthur Imperatore Sr.

[edit]
Article: Arthur Imperatore Sr. (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): NorthJersey.com
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: American businessman, owner of NY Waterway. I've expanded and tidied it up a bit - Dumelow (talk) 09:47, 20 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Brigade Piron, I've expanded this - Dumelow (talk) 11:59, 20 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Closed) Boeing 737 MAX groundings

[edit]
No consensus to post. Discussion becoming a forum. ~ Destroyeraa🌀 16:12, 23 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Articles: Boeing 737 MAX groundings (talk · history · tag) and Boeing 737 MAX (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ The United States Federal Aviation Administration clears Boeing's 737 MAX to return to fly. (Post)
News source(s): Seattle Times BBC Fox Business
Credits:
Nominator's comments: Notable and important event for aviation industry and history. ArionEstar (talk) 00:53, 20 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
This is sliding/has slid into WP:NOTFORUM category and should be collapsed. Consensus to post this is not going to develop anyway. Gotitbro (talk) 07:00, 23 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed. Strong consensus against posting free advertising for bug fixes. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 08:08, 23 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(Posted) RD: Paul Sobol

[edit]
Article: Paul Sobol (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): EJPress, Le Vif, La Libre Belgique
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Holocaust survivor known as one of the leading figures in Holocaust education in Belgium. One of the few remaining survivors of Auschwitz concentration camp. —Brigade Piron (talk) 10:20, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Gotitbro, the tag relates to his having published an autobiography which is already cited in the following section and is already verifiable, so I have removed the tag I have fixed this anyway. I have also added another citation to the paragraph, Muboshgu. —Brigade Piron (talk) 09:46, 20 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Well, "post-posting support". Gotitbro (talk) 10:05, 20 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

November 17

[edit]
November 17, 2020 (2020-11-17) (Tuesday)

Armed conflicts and attacks

Business and economy

Health and environment

International relations

Politics and elections

Science and technology

(Closed) Pakistan Super League

[edit]
Stale. Oldest blurb is November 19. ~ Destroyeraa🌀 16:11, 23 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: 2020 Pakistan Super League Final (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ In cricket, the Karachi Kings defeat Lahore Qalandars in the final to win the Pakistan Super League. (Post)
News source(s): BBC ESPN Sky Sports
Credits:

Article updated
Nominator's comments: Updated, thorough and In the News. Depressed Desi (talk) 19:47, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak oppose this is a reasonable article and it's a topic of massive interest to our Pakistani readers for sure. I think if Lahore had won it, this would be a no-brainer, commentators were comparing their prospective victory to the 5000-1 Leicester City Premier League win. But it didn't happen. And we have a lot of cricket on ITN. If I could be convinced this was properly in the news then I'd be tempted to move to support. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 22:35, 20 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(Posted) RD: Sheldon Solow

[edit]
Article: Sheldon Solow (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Bloomburg
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: American billionaire real estate developer. I've expanded the article a bit and it looks in good shape - Dumelow (talk) 07:09, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) RD: Anjum Singh

[edit]
Article: Anjum Singh (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): FirstPost Indian Express
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Indian artist. Expanded the article. Well referenced. Has shaped up to be a clean C-class biography. Meets expectations for homepage / RD. RIP. For those wanting to see some of the paintings here and here. Ktin (talk) 05:39, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

November 16

[edit]
November 16, 2020 (2020-11-16) (Monday)
Business and economy

Disasters and accidents

Health and environment

International relations

Law and crime

Politics and elections

(Closed) Peru interim president

[edit]
No consensus to post. Stephen 00:06, 23 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: Francisco Sagasti (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ Following the resignation of Manuel Merino, the Congress of Peru elects Francisco Sagasti as an interim president of the country. (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ Following the resignation of Manuel Merino, Francisco Sagasti is elected as interim president of Peru.
News source(s): The Guardian, Al Jazeera etc
Credits:

The nominated event is listed on WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.
Nominator's comments: Peru blockbuster, part 3. Needs some work, then to be bumped per usual practice. Brandmeistertalk 20:58, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(Posted) RD: Shawkat Ali (politician)

[edit]
Article: Shawkat Ali (politician) (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Bangladeshi politician. Could use a little expansion, but it'll probably be tomorrow before I can get around to it - Dumelow (talk) 19:18, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) RD: Campbell Forsyth

[edit]
Article: Campbell Forsyth (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): St Mirren FC
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: St Mirren, Kilmarock, Southampton and Scotland goal keeper. Death announced 16 November. I've added missing refs and tidied the article up a bit - Dumelow (talk) 19:15, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Closed) Hurricane Iota

[edit]
Withdrawn. Will redux this if it surpasses 40 deaths. Which it probably will, sadly ~ Destroyeraa🌀 19:19, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Proposed image
Article: Hurricane Iota (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ Hurricane Iota hits Central America, killing 21 people and leaving at least 44 missing. (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ Hurricane Iota strengths into a Category 5 hurricane, the first since Lorenzo of last year, as it is approaching Honduras and Nicaragua.
Alternative blurb II: ​ The first (and latest) Category 5 hurricane of the 2020 Atlantic hurricane season is set to slam Central America after killing three, injuring 20, and leaving eight missing in Colombia.
Alternative blurb III: ​ Hurricane Iota makes landfall in Nicaragua as a strong Category 4 storm, the second major hurricane to do so in two weeks, following Hurricane Eta on 3 November.
Credits:
Nominator's comments: Cat 5. ~ Destroyeraa🌀 14:57, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@The Rambling Man: not sure what you mean by "nowhere near as strong". You do realize that hurricanes weaken after making landfall and when they move over land, right? It peaked as a Cat 5 with 160mph (260kph) winds; yes, it did weaken slightly (5mph/10kph difference) to a Cat 4 with 155mph (250kph) winds and made landfall at that strength. It is now much weaker because it has been over land for several hours. 192.197.178.2 (talk) 17:56, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
How many deaths? The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 19:21, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@The Rambling Man: you do realize that it takes time to determine the death toll after a natural disaster like a hurricane, right? Hence, all of the "wait" !votes. Your oppose !vote was hastily made before the hurricane even made landfall and then you sustained your oppose !vote while the disaster was still occurring. Any reasonable observer would wait (as many have here) until the hurricane is over and they count the dead before making any deterministic statements like you have about the death toll. 192.197.178.2 (talk) 21:40, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
What utter claptrap. If you're accusing me of a premature "oppose" then why aren't you accusing the OP of a premature nomination? Honestly, utterly ridiculous. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, oppose (ARGH, you CAN'T DO THAT), wait, wait.... Get a grip. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 21:44, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@The Rambling Man: The OP did make a premature nomination. It doesn't change the fact that you made a premature oppose !vote though. Do you have any better arguments to make other than "he did it too!" 192.197.178.2 (talk) 21:53, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, my original argument stands. Currently not newsworthy, so I oppose this nomination. What's your problem hounding me? Why not just log-in? The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 21:55, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I mean, it's so impactful that no news items on Google appear to have been updated for 10 hours. I mean, WOW. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 22:14, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with you, @The Rambling Man: , that ITN/C has become a bit too tropical cyclone centric (I've contributed to this a bit myself), but that doesn't mean we can't post tropical cyclones. In particular, Iota is shaping up to be a bad one. Gex4pls (talk) 02:43, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@CyclonicallyDeranged: The thing is that the listed above all caused many deaths. The thing about 50 deaths is a bit much, I'm fine with 30. ~ Destroyeraa🌀 14:43, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
No no no, it's got to be contextual. If we had 24 hurricanes all of which killed 30+ people in a year, we wouldn't post them all. We should be looking for the non-routine events, that could be wind speeds, or $ damage or # deaths, but this is fifth in the list for this year, 15th for the past four years, it's utterly mundane. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 14:45, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
More things in the world kill more people than these storms, like COVID. Report them, not cyclones. 30 is way too small. I could increase my threshold to 100 deaths, 50 is too small.--CyclonicallyDeranged (talk) 14:47, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
ITN only has four spots to put in any news in at a time. If there are 4 or more cyclones within a week that cause deaths, ITN has a huge problem.--CyclonicallyDeranged (talk) 14:48, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
PS: For some reason, big snowstorms were always more interesting. – Sca (talk) 15:17, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Very much the same things happen in today's cyclones as it was eons ago, although with more people and higher technology comes an increase in damage bills and perhaps decrease death tolls due to improved forecasting.--CyclonicallyDeranged (talk) 15:47, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@The Rambling Man, CyclonicallyDeranged, and WaltCip: Death toll is now up to 21, with 44 missing. Though TRM and CD will probably not change their opinions, I'm just letting them know. ~ Destroyeraa🌀 15:59, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Correct, that is in no way remarkable, in no sense at all does it set it aside from the three other deadlier Atlantic hurricanes so far this season.... The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 16:01, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@The Rambling Man: FYI, It's now the third most deadliest, after Laura and Eta. ~ Destroyeraa🌀 16:05, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Let me know when it becomes notable. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 16:26, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Wow, much deadlier than two of the pacific Typhoons we posted last month, one with four supports in less than a day. If anyone is unclear: Central America is not the United States of America so you don't need to "fight systemic bias" here --LaserLegs (talk) 16:09, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I had honestly thought Nicaragua was located in Kansas, so thank you for clearing up the confusion.--WaltCip-(talk) 16:18, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I closed this about 10 minutes ago due to arguing here but it was reopened. NoahTalk 16:44, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I support closing the nomination. Reopen only when the death toll skyrockets.--CyclonicallyDeranged (talk) 16:52, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Why? We've shown two recently posted typhoons which were speedy posted with lower death tolls. What's the reason to not post this one? Were those mistakes? --LaserLegs (talk) 17:18, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Yes they were unless something extraordinary happened in each case, they were routine weather patterns and barely notable, let alone suitable for the main page of a global encyclopedia. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 17:20, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Fair enough then. We should do better next season. --LaserLegs (talk) 17:33, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) Not sure which typhoons you are referring to. I remembered only discussing one typhoon. The others I didn't.--CyclonicallyDeranged (talk) 17:22, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Goni and Molave --LaserLegs (talk) 17:33, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Goni, I supported as notable (one of the strongest). Molave, I did not discuss when the nomination was open. If Molave occurred today I would oppose.--CyclonicallyDeranged (talk) 17:36, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Iota is the only cat 5 of a record atlantic season --LaserLegs (talk) 17:43, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
OMG, groannnnnnn. "Iota is the only cat 5 of a record atlantic season" is fansite material.--CyclonicallyDeranged (talk) 17:49, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
ITN's blurb for Molave was later updated to state it caused 50 deaths at the time it rolled off. It ultimately caused 71 deaths. Howard the Duck (talk) 17:52, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Ah yes in this case it would have been better to nominate Molave at the moment it was known the typhoon killed 50...or 71.--CyclonicallyDeranged (talk) 17:55, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
That's true... but sometimes once everyone accounts the casualties (or some of it until it reaches the WP:ITNMINIMUMDEATHS of 50), it's no longer In the News. Howard the Duck (talk) 17:59, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Counting deaths can take days, even weeks after the event actually occurred so no surprise there. Then there is the government making their own funny decisions on what info to publicly release, and there are corrupted governments that do even worse. By the way, Molave and Goni were on ITN at the same time at one point, and I believe it would be preferable to have two typhoons combined on one ITN headline.--CyclonicallyDeranged (talk) 18:04, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
On your first point, again that's true. If we'd wait to hit for the WP:ITNMINIMUMDEATHS of 50, some blurbs would not have made it because people who would've argued "wait until we reach the WP:ITNMINIMUMDEATHS of 50" would then argue that it is stale once it reached the WP:ITNMINIMUMDEATHS of 50... or they'd probably hike the WP:ITNMINIMUMDEATHS to 100. On your second point, we don't do that, just as the same way we don't combine two routine general elections in two separate countries. Howard the Duck (talk) 18:08, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Will there be a quiz on this 26,000-word topic? – Sca (talk) 18:15, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Yep it can take time before the true terror of a typhoon is known. On 2nd point, I think ITN should do that. News programs have done that before by reporting the impact of simultaneous cyclones in separate countries, even continents.--CyclonicallyDeranged (talk) 18:20, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Suggest you read Typhoon and report back to us. – Sca (talk) 18:26, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Goni groaaaaaaaaaaaaan it's "one of the stronnnnnnngessssttttttttttt" burp. --LaserLegs (talk) 18:17, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Sounds like my drinking days.--CyclonicallyDeranged (talk) 18:22, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Lets just close this stagnating conversation until there's a significant development. Gex4pls (talk) 18:43, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Actually it has been quite funny and hilarious reading and chatting during this discussion. Interesting book on a typhoon Sca...--CyclonicallyDeranged (talk) 19:11, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@CyclonicallyDeranged: per many of you guys wanting to close this drunken discussion, I'm closing and will re-nominate once it hits a number of deaths you guys would want to see. ~ Destroyeraa🌀 19:19, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(Posted) RD: Walid Muallem

[edit]
Article: Walid Muallem (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Reuters
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Syrian foreign minister and deputy PM. Article in reasonable shape - Dumelow (talk) 06:38, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Joseywales1961, I found an archived version and fixed it- Dumelow (talk) 18:12, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

November 15

[edit]
November 15, 2020 (2020-11-15) (Sunday)
Arts and culture
  • Pope Francis issues an appeal to authorities in Ivory Coast to establish a climate of mutual trust and dialogue in the West African nation, where controversial elections have led to violence and a mass exodus from the country. (Vatican News)

Business and economy

Disasters and accidents

Health and environment

Law and crime

Politics and elections

Science and technology

(Posted) 2020 Moldovan presidential election

[edit]
Proposed image
Article: 2020 Moldovan presidential election (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ Maia Sandu (pictured) is elected first female President of Moldova, defeating incumbent Igor Dodon. (Post)
News source(s): Deutsche Welle The Telegraph (source for first female), AP
Credits:

The nominated event is listed on WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.

 ArionEstar (talk) 09:21, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) RD: Carlos Amadeu

[edit]
Article: Carlos Amadeu (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Brazilian football manager. I am working on fleshing out the article a bit - Dumelow (talk) 07:21, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) RD: Norman Taylor (basketball)

[edit]
Article: Norman Taylor (basketball) (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): ABC
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Australian basketball player. Article could perhaps use a little expansion but otherwise looks good - Dumelow (talk) 06:40, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) SpaceX Crew-1

[edit]
Article: SpaceX Crew-1 (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ First operational manned flight, SpaceX Crew-1 launches with astronauts Michael Hopkins, Victor Glover, Soichi Noguchi, and Shannon Walker. (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ SpaceX Crew-1 launches with astronauts Michael Hopkins, Victor Glover, Soichi Noguchi, and Shannon Walker.
News source(s): CNN, Guardian
Article updated
The nominated event is listed on WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.

Nominator's comments: Pending a last-minute abort, this manned, ITNR launch should occur in 80 mins from posting this. I am still posting this so people can take a look at the article for last-minute checks. 205.175.106.183 (talk) 23:07, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment What is "First operational manned flight" supposed to mean? First for SpaceX or is it some technical lingo? If its only unique for being a SpaceX manned flight, why so? Needs to be clarified in the blurb. Gotitbro (talk) 23:37, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - as I understand it, SpaceX made a test flight earlier this year, which just had dudes orbiting around for a while before coming down again, while this new one is a proper "mission", which will dock with the ISS. It would certainly need clarifying what that means, and I suspect just going with the shorter ALT blurb is better. The article's "Mission" section is currently lacking some references, so that will need fixing up before going live, and I suspect also a bit of prose on how the launch itself went, once that's known, would be good.  — Amakuru (talk) 00:08, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. I was coming in to nominate this myself. Agree that this is ITNR. Re: above comment from Amakuru -- almost that, the only edit is that the previous launch also docked at the ISS carrying astronauts Bob and Doug. The difference is that the previous launch was a test launch/mission and hence designated as 'demo'. The article should be updated with launch details. Would also recommend that the blurb be edited to mention the ISS as well.Ktin (talk) 00:29, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Cmnt it just launched. Previous one was a demo/test flight. This is a contracted, commercial flight. Alt has the non-verbose version. 205.175.106.183 (talk) 00:54, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per above. Davey2116 (talk) 08:05, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment takeoff time seems to be unreferenced, and I'd wait for this to dock successfully if it was down to me, but ITNR probably just refers to the launch, so no complaints if, once the time is sourced, this being posted. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 10:46, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per above. ~ Destroyeraa🌀 14:00, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support – Per TRM, but wait until docking. A milestone? – Sca (talk) 14:12, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose I really don't understand why this one is notable. In the first mission, they launched and recovered 2 people from space, docked with ISS, did four EVAs, the mission wasn't exactly short like the 1st missions of US, Russia, and China "spent over 100 hours completing science experiments, while traveling 27 million miles over their 1024 orbits of the Earth". Hats-off to space-x for basically checking most of the boxes in one go the first time (which would have taken governments years...), for which we duly posted as ITN, but this time there is nothing noteworthy incremental that would justify second posting. Albertaont (talk) 14:33, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    @Albertaont: WP:ITN/R#Space exploration says that "the launch of crewed orbital spaceflights" qualifies automatically for ITN, so per usual convention we shouldn't be opposing this on notability grounds. If you think that condition for a recurring item is invalid, then you'll have to suggest a change at Wikipedia talk:In the news and gain consensus for that. Cheers  — Amakuru (talk) 14:50, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support I would've thought that routine ISS launches wouldn't qualify for ITN, but I guess ITN/R says otherwise. We should discuss that at some point. Juxlos (talk) 15:13, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
This does need to be revisited on ITNR. I thought this was unique being the first commercial mission et all, but that is not the case and that mission had been posted earlier sometime ago on ITN. Don't see the uniqueness of this at all. Gotitbro (talk) 18:51, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I've argued for years that routine ISS crew rotation flights should not be ITNR. No-one has come up with a counter-argument, but the discussion always peters out without any changes the the listing. See the archives of WT:ITNR. Modest Genius talk 13:50, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Closed) RD: Ray Clemence

[edit]
Closed as stale, the oldest RD on the template is currently 16 Nov - Dumelow (talk) 13:49, 20 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: Ray Clemence (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): BBC
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Well-known international goalkeeper. Article needs work. Black Kite (talk) 22:07, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

2020 Masters Tournament

[edit]
Article: 2020 Masters Tournament (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ In golf, Dustin Johnson wins the Masters Tournament. (Post)
News source(s): ESPN, CNN
Credits:

Article updated
The nominated event is listed on WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.

 PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 20:03, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) Resignation of Manuel Merino

[edit]
Proposed image
Article: 2020 Peruvian protests (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ Under the enormous pressure of massive protests throughout Peru, Peruvian Interim President Manuel Merino resigns from the Presidency after just six days in office (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ Peru devolves into a political crisis following the impeachment of Martín Vizcarra, mass nationwide protests, and the resignation of Interim President Manuel Merino
Alternative blurb II: ​ In Peru, following the impeachment and removal of President Martín Vizcarra, interim president Manuel Merino resigns amidst nationwide protests.
Alternative blurb III: ​ Peruvian Interim President Manuel Merino resigns from the presidency amidst under pressure from Peruvian protestors
Alternative blurb IV: ​ Manuel Merino, Interim President of Peru, resigns from the presidency after 12 cabinet ministers resign, pressure from Congress, and mass nationwide protests
News source(s): Reuters, WSJ, Bloomberg, U.S. News, AP
Credits:

Nominator's comments: Kind of a follow-up to the mass political crisis devolving in Peru. Not too related to the Impeachment of Martín Vizcarra, since the resignation was a result of pressure from protestors. I'll keep on working on the article and the altblurbs. User:DoctorSpeed

2020 MotoGP World Championship

[edit]
Article: 2020 MotoGP World Championship (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ In motorcycle racing, Spanish rider Joan Mir wins the 2020 MotoGP World Championship. (Post)
News source(s): Crash.net, The Seattle Times
Credits:

Article updated
The nominated event is listed on WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.

Nominator's comments: It would be very appreciated if someone could upload a free work of Mir. Unnamelessness (talk) 14:01, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) Lewis Hamilton and 2020 Formula One World Championship

[edit]
Proposed image
Articles: Lewis Hamilton (talk · history · tag) and 2020 Formula One World Championship (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ Lewis Hamilton (pictured) wins the 2020 Turkish Grand Prix and becomes Formula 1 World Champion for the seventh time, equalling Michael Schumacher's record. Mercedes are Constructor's Champions. (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ Lewis Hamilton (pictured) is crowned 2020 Formula One World Champion after winning the 2020 Turkish Grand Prix, equalling Michael Schumacher's record of seven, while Mercedes win the Constructors' Championship for the seventh straight year.
Alternative blurb II: ​ Lewis Hamilton (pictured) wins the Formula One World Championship for a record-equalling seventh time, while Mercedes win the constructors' title.
Alternative blurb III: ​ Lewis Hamilton (pictured) wins the Formula One World Championship, while Mercedes win the constructors' title.
News source(s): (Sky news) [17]
Credits:

Article updated
One or both nominated events are listed on WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.

 Mjroots (talk) 12:11, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) Tigray conflict

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Article: Tigray conflict (talk · history · tag)
Ongoing item nomination (Post)
News source(s): BBC, AP, Reuters
Credits:

Nominator's comments: Ongoing and apparent cause of previous concerns about Ethiopia, article in generally good nick Brandmeistertalk 10:15, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) RD: Soumitra Chatterjee

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Article: Soumitra Chatterjee (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Indian Express, NDTV
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Indian Actor in Bengali films. Article requires some work in adding citations across sections and also removal of the yellow box. Nice work by Gotitbro. I think this article looks clean for RD. Ktin (talk) 08:26, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

*Oppose For now. Mostly what Dumelow said. Gotitbro (talk) 12:54, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Ktin: I have done some cleanup for the the lead (yellow box), refs and the issues raised above (publications). Please see if there are further issues with tone, otherwise it looks ready for RD. Gotitbro (talk) 03:46, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Support Looks fine now. Gotitbro (talk) 04:15, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Regional Comprehensive Economic Partnership

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Article: Regional Comprehensive Economic Partnership (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ ASEAN and five regional partners sign the Regional Comprehensive Economic Partnership, creating the world's largest trade bloc by percent of global GDP. (Post)
Alternative blurb: ​ Fifteen East, Southeast Asian and Australasian states signed the Regional Comprehensive Economic Partnership, creating the world's largest prospected trade bloc by GDP or population.
News source(s): "China, Japan and 13 other Asian-Pacific nations have agreed to found the world's largest trading bloc" ABC News
Credits:

Article updated

Nominator's comments: Article could do with a little work in some areas. Ivar the Boneful (talk) 10:14, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

User:GreatCaesarsGhost the terms of the agreement are not publicly available yet. Ivar the Boneful (talk) 15:11, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I have no idea where and how you got the idea that the terms are "absent" or "not publicly available", as both Japan and Australia has published the full text of RCEP agreement, even including annexes. Also (even if it really were absent) I cannot see any connection between "terms absent" and an objection for ITN - would you please clarify your reasoning for that? --173.68.165.114 (talk) 22:52, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Not sure about this. While significant not really sure what will come of this, a lot of media hype was created earlier but that has probably dampened due to the pandemic. I'd say wait for sometime and if its still being given prominent coverage internationally we can consider it. Gotitbro (talk) 12:58, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose And now oppose, thanks Masem for pointing this out, only an agreement for a pact no ratification as of yet. Gotitbro (talk) 16:49, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose as this requires ratification by the member countries which could take two years. It is important (scope like formation of EU), but not yet assured. --Masem (t) 14:37, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Comment Concerning the case of TPP, non-ractificationess didn't pose a successful objection (and of course, TPP was in ITN for a second time when it's ractified). I wonder if there's any change in ITN certeria during this five years. --173.68.165.114 (talk) 23:01, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Support Thanks 173.68.165.114 (talk · contribs) for convincing me. Cheers. ~ Destroyeraa🌀 16:07, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Front page coverage in almost all asian pacific countries, and it is still getting decent coverage even in North America. Albertaont (talk) 16:10, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Ratification will almost certainly come piecemeal considering there are 13 countries involved, and I don't see any clear indication to assume it would not pass in all countries. Otherwise, this is by some measure the biggest trade bloc in the world and it takes up considerable attention in international news - some headlines, but definitely top of the economy section at least. Juxlos (talk) 18:07, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. This has already got plenty of global coverage. I'm intrigued by the suggestion that ratification is more important here than signing. Would we not have featured the United Nations Conference on International Organization simply because it was several months before Luxembourg ratified it? —Brigade Piron (talk) 18:17, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support in itself historic, regardless if it is ratified or not. The scope of it is what is significant, and per Brigade Piron and per 173.68.165.114, it is deserving of ITN. Please reconsider Destroyeraa, Masem and GreatCaesarsGhost based off 173.68.165.114's comment and others. Thanks. 108.46.219.194 (talk) 01:18, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • Done. Good reasoning. ~ Destroyeraa🌀 01:59, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • My objection was and remains the lack of any detail of what is in the agreement. As noted in the ABC article above "It will take time to fully assess exact details of the agreement encompassing tariff schedules and rules for all 15 countries involved — the tariffs schedule just for Japan is 1,334 pages long. It is not expected to go as far as the European Union in integrating member economies but does build on existing free trade arrangements." We need something like this in the article, preferably from a few different sources. GreatCaesarsGhost 03:05, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • Thank you! May I understand the objection this way: it is not the lack of detail but the lack of understanding of the detail. Since the agreement is too detailed and technical, it is almost impossible to overall catch the effect of those numbers, and the most practical way for most international analysts who do not have enough time and resources to input and simulating all these data into a supercomputer is simply wait and see what will happen. Correct me if my understanding of your objection is incorrect. --173.68.165.114 (talk) 04:32, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • Btw I added a geographic based alt blurb, for I think many non-Asians may not be familiar with what ASEAN is. --173.68.165.114 (talk) 04:32, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose it might or might not be significant, but the article for sure is not even close to being ready for the front page. A tiny section on the actual provisions of the agreement, one sentence on the ex-ante impact, a bullet point list of negotiation dates, but almost nothing about what was negotiated. And nothing on the background, rationale, political economy. And btw, I also agree that it should be posted one it comes into effect, AFTER ratification. 2A02:A451:8B2D:1:104A:9C3F:31A:8C74 (talk) 06:22, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per above. Historic agreement. Davey2116 (talk) 08:05, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per Masem. Until this is ratified, it is really just speculative. Particularly as, per GCG, we do'nt know the details to judge how significant it is. We should post as and when it is ratified and/or details show its importance. Also, per IP above, the quality needs improving before we would consider posting it.  — Amakuru (talk) 12:12, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    THe IP stated the entire agreement has been released. It'll take time to go through it, but an agreement this big and important should have a lot of journalists reading and commenting on it quickly. That said, there's already a good argument for waiting, and waiting should address the substance problems. GreatCaesarsGhost 12:21, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Fair enough, I agree with that. Once the detail that you mention is included, and assuming it doesn't turn out to be just some minor deal to reduce tariffs on paperclips or something, it could be good to go.  — Amakuru (talk) 12:28, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    @Amakuru: I'll just cite one of the permutations as an example, from a Nikkei source. Japan's trade with China ($350 billion) will see tariffs removed on c. 90% of products. Similar is true with South Korea-Japan ($100 billion or so). It basically is a free trade deal, minus a number of select commodities. Juxlos (talk) 15:06, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support why not? It's a huge deal encompassing 30% of the world's economy. Banedon (talk) 12:16, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support If this isn't significant enough I don't know what economic news is. Bzweebl (talk • contribs) 19:06, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose The short Contents section convinces me that this is not actually impactful. It's an incomplete tariff reduction. Confusingly, it is supposed to reduce red tape, but at the same time introduce rules of origin regulations. The section flatly says that the most salient subjects are not addressed in the agreement, and that it is not as comprehensive as previous treaties. It is not topline economic news in my corner of the world.130.233.213.199 (talk) 07:06, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

November 14

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November 14, 2020 (2020-11-14) (Saturday)
Armed conflicts and attacks

Disasters and accidents

Health and environment

International relations

Politics and elections

(Closed) RD: Adolfo Bolea

[edit]
Closed as stale, the oldest RD on the template is currently 15 Nov - Dumelow (talk) 06:54, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: Adolfo Bolea (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Diario de Cádiz (in Spanish)
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Spanish footballer and manager. I've expanded it to include his management career and it looks OK now - Dumelow (talk) 16:42, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Joseywales1961, can't believe I missed that one. Now reffed - Dumelow (talk) 18:08, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(Closed) Piatra Neamț hospital fire

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No consensus to post. Stephen 22:14, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: Piatra Neamț hospital fire (talk · history · tag)
Blurb: ​ A fire at the COVID-19 intensive care unit of a hospital in Piatra Neamț, Romania, kills ten people and leaves seven others injured. (Post)
News source(s): BBC Euronews Al Jazeera
Credits:
Nominator's comments: Stub but many sources and considerably tragic event. ArionEstar (talk) 12:54, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(Closed) RD: Des O'Connor

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Closed as stale, the oldest RD on the template is currently 15 Nov - Dumelow (talk) 06:54, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: Des O'Connor (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): BBC News
Credits:

Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Sing on our show? You can't sing on your own show! All round entertainer and nice guy, who didn't care about being fashionable. Article needs many more sources, but people are working on it. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 14:34, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. Sourcing is frankly only one of the big issues with this article. There are a few sections which are not even in prose! —Brigade Piron (talk) 18:11, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose for now, per Brigade Piron there are many citation needed tags and the Career section in bullet points needs to be addressed JW 1961 Talk 21:02, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support This has now been reported in several news sources as confirmed by a quick Google search. Furthermore, O'Connor is very well-known at least in the UK. Agreed that there are several CNs in the Career section of his article, but is this criterion for inclusion as an RD? — Smjg (talk) 15:45, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(Posted) RD: Max Gros-Louis

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Article: Max Gros-Louis (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): CBC
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

Nominator's comments: Canadian First Nation chief. I'd like to do a bit more work on it, but it's getting there - Dumelow (talk) 09:24, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) RD: Doug Supernaw

[edit]
Article: Doug Supernaw (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): Associated Press; Houston Chronicle; Variety
Credits:

Article updated
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.

 Bloom6132 (talk) 01:07, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment thanks for the updates, but there's still a few things that are unclear to me. Once these are resolved, I think it'll be good to go:
    1. The link for the US Country album chart positions, just points to https://www.billboard.com/charts/country-albums, which defaults to the chart as of this week. How am I supposed to translate that page into verifying the peak position for Supernaw's albums? It looks like a Paywall site, so I'm not sure what lies beneath, but it seems like explicit links verifying the peak positions would be better.
    2. Ditto for US country songs chart.
    3. The studio albums don't seem to have AllMusic links, so I can't verify the release date, label and formats for those.
    4. The cite links in the "Music videos" table seem to be broken - they all just redirect to the generic page https://www.youtube.com/user/cmtvideo/.  — Amakuru (talk) 16:14, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Amakuru: re point #3, I've added an AllMusic ref to his album discography. For points #1 and 2, you could use the "Date Search" dropdown function that comes after "The week of …". That part is not behind a paywall. And explicit links to peak position charts were not required for the ITN noms of Jerry Jeff Walker and Johnny Bush just over a month ago. —Bloom6132 (talk) 16:43, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Bloom6132: Having the reader query up to 52 weeks to find a given rank for one song is not exactly verifiable. For the US tracks, Reno (Doug Supernaw song) used https://www.billboard.com/music/Doug-Supernaw/chart-history/CSI, which had all of his ranked songs in one place. Not sure if that single-link equivalent exists for the Canadian charts. Otherwise, those individual song articles seem to have some relevant citations for the respective song.—Bagumba (talk) 17:03, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Bagumba: the link you provided is already included in the article, so I've expanded its use into the Singles table. As for the Canadian charts, the ref from the Canadian government (Library and Archives Canada database) is the only reliable source that I know of. I can't say that about the other external links in the RPM article. —Bloom6132 (talk) 00:07, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Bagumba and Amakuru: just added archive URLs to the "Music videos" table (addressing point #4). @Spencer and Stephen: I think this may be ready to go. —Bloom6132 (talk) 10:02, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Almost there! Still wondering how we verify those US Country chart numbers though... the 27, 48 and 42?  — Amakuru (talk) 12:08, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Amakuru: done. —Bloom6132 (talk) 12:50, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Bloom6132: For the other Billboard charts for Supernaw, go to that link you already used at https://www.billboard.com/music/Doug-Supernaw/chart-history/CSI. Where it says "Hot Country Song" up top is a drop-down menu, where you can get to other charts specifically for him. For example, selecting "Top Country Albums" will bring you to https://www.billboard.com/music/doug-supernaw/chart-history/CLP, which you can use for the "US Country" column for the studio albums. All that's left is Canada. Perhaps others might say the article is mostly sourced and be OK? Other options are to move it to the talk page. Good luck.—Bagumba (talk) 12:48, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Bagumba I thought ref 20 verifies the Canadian charts? That same government source for RPM was deemed acceptable in the RD nom Johnny Bush just over a month ago, because the URL was targeted for that specific artist (as opposed to linking to the general database for the reader to search). Surely it should be acceptable in this case, don't you think? —Bloom6132 (talk) 12:56, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Bloom6132: Sorry I dion't see that it was only for this artists. I'm probably not making a formal bolded !vote here, so people can interpret my comments how they want. It seems like all the sources are probably there among those 64 links. It's just a matter of clicking through each one until you get the one that's relevant. Correct? —Bagumba (talk) 13:32, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Correct. —Bloom6132 (talk) 13:51, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Closed) RD: Hasan Muratović

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Closed as stale, the oldest RD on the template is currently 15 Nov - Dumelow (talk) 06:54, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: Hasan Muratović (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): (Sarajevo Times)
Credits:

Article needs updating
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: 4th Prime Minister of Bosnia ans Herzegovina. Dies from COVID-19. Alsoriano97 (talk) 22:29, 14 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(Closed) RD: Armen Dzhigarkhanyan

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Closed as stale, the oldest RD on the template is currently 15 Nov - Dumelow (talk) 06:54, 18 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article: Armen Dzhigarkhanyan (talk · history · tag)
Recent deaths nomination (Post)
News source(s): (Armradio) meduza.io
Credits:

Article needs updating
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Renowned Armenian-Russian actor. Alsoriano97 (talk) 22:29, 14 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

November 13

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(Posted) RD: Masatoshi Koshiba

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Template:ITN candidate

(Closed) Hurricane Eta

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Template:Archive top Template:ITN candidate

Template:Archive bottom

(Closed) 2020 Western Saharan clashes

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Template:Atop Template:ITN candidate

  • Oppose For now, no clarity on what the consequences are or will be. Also, the lead seems problematic with statements such as "internationally recognized as part of Morocco" which I don't see in the main linked articles. Gotitbro (talk) 05:48, 14 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Template:U, fixed the lead issue. --► Sincerely: SolaVirum 13:44, 14 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
No you haven't; you've replaced "internationally recognized" with "unrecognized" which is flat-out untrue. ‑ Iridescent 14:20, 14 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
War has been formally declared by one side. Need to keep a close eye on this situation, looks set to escalate. Gotitbro (talk) 13:02, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Abot

(Posted) RD: John Meurig Thomas

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Template:ITN candidate

(Posted) Typhoon Vamco

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Template:ITN candidate

  • Comment I totally agree that in the last few weeks we've not posted [18] [19] [20] a literal record number of storms hitting the United States / Caribbean .... *shrugs* --LaserLegs (talk) 21:22, 13 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - sadly this is normal for most storm impacts. Support since the toll is much higher now. NoahTalk 22:21, 13 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Wait. Still assessing the damages, and with the overwhelmed rescue operations in the Cagayan Valley, it'll take some time to identify the true extent of the deaths. Chlod (say hi!) 22:44, 13 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • Template:Ping The death toll of Vamco has risen to 42. How can a C5 kill 26 while a C2 kills more than 42 and a C1 kills 39? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Destroyeraa (talk • contribs) 22:56, 13 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      • People saw that the C5 didn't kill them so they let their guard down on the next one. Howard the Duck (talk) 23:01, 13 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      • Wind speed does not necessarily translate to impact as heavy rains can also cause massive floods which kill more, much like Typhoon Ketsana, which killed 710 despite being a Cat. 2-equivalent. Taking in whatever I can from news right now (meaning this isn't official state information, yet it is a good estimation), Goni's impact was limited since its damages were mostly due to winds, and most of those to be affected were evacuated in time. Marikina, Cagayan, and Isabela evacuated their citizens in low-lying areas early, however, when the dams opened and all the excess water was pushed out into the Cagayan River and Pasig River, all areas which were close to bodies of water part of the spillway systems, including those far from low-lying areas, were quickly filled up, giving the state little time to react given the limited rescue teams and the extent of the affected areas. In short, they failed to prepare for the flooding caused by the dams, causing massive floods in affected areas. However, due to the lack of sources on the topic, I can't put that in the article yet. Chlod (say hi!) 23:18, 13 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support been a terrible month for tropical cyclones (and there's already another storm that's forecast to hit nicaragua as a c3+), and the Philippines seems to have really taken a beating, though I do think we may want to Wait until landfall in vietnam. Gex4pls (talk)
  • Support per nom. It's unfortunate that the Philippines has been hit by typhoons in quick succession. The damage from Typhoon Vamco is already too much to ignore and floods have broken records again. Some others might dismiss this as just another typhoon, but several major international media outlets have been doing extensive coverage of the aftermath of this typhoon. LSGH (talk) (contributions) 07:24, 14 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose for now. The lead needs some expansion, at the very least it sholud provide a bit of detail about what happened in the Philippines and the death toll. After that, good to go.  — Amakuru (talk) 11:52, 14 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Wait, Vamco's expected to make landfall in Vietnam as a typhoon (yes, yet another one) in the next 12 hours, which will likely lead to a burst of new info. ~ KN2731 {talk · contribs} 16:09, 14 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Posted - apologies, I posted it following Template:U's helpful update to the lead, withdrawing my own objections, and this was before KN2731 comment above. But I forgot to mention it here. I think there was broad consensus that it was already notable enough for posting, and as usual it can be updated as the death toll and locations hit changes.  — Amakuru (talk) 17:08, 14 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Update required as official sources raised the death count to 67 people. Chlod (say hi!) 03:39, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Closed) RD: John Hays

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Template:ITN candidate

(Posted) RD: Peter Sutcliffe

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Template:ITN candidate

November 12

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Template:Cot Portal:Current events/2020 November 12 Template:Cob

(Posted) 2020 Belizean general election

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Template:ITN candidate

(Posted) RD: Gernot Roll

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Template:ITN candidate

Sorry it was not clear from your statement what you meant. And my comment here was for everyone who sees the nom and wants to improve it not you (the nominator) specifically. I am not much familiar with German cinema (or sourcing it) so someone more attuned should take a go at it. Gotitbro (talk) 08:08, 14 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Understand better, but fail to see what in "there could be more. The list of films is MUCH longer in German" could be unclear, - language edification always welcome. I'll go over my watchlist, do what I have to urgently, and THEN see if I can help, but I have found the clock of ITN ticking fast, and people not appearing because I nominated too late, so stopped waiting until the article is in shape. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:24, 14 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I added those films - a minority - that have an article in English. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:22, 14 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) RD: Waqar Ahmed Seth

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Template:ITN candidate

(Posted) RD: Albert Quixall

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Template:ITN candidate

Thanks Espresso Addict. I've sourced the 1954 oldest survivor fact (which was added by another editor), though in a somewhat roundabout way, and added a source that mentions his non-league spell at the end of his career - Dumelow (talk) 07:55, 14 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, Template:U. I trawled through the list of 1954 players and they all do indeed seem to have predeceased Quixall. Espresso Addict (talk) 08:22, 14 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Closed) Ongoing: Peruvian protests

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Template:Atop Template:ITN candidate

Template:Abot

(Closed) RD: Asif Basra

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Template:Archive top Template:ITN candidate

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(Removed) Remove Polish protests from ongoing

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(Posted) Jerry Rawlings

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  • Support Well sourced and of good length. Gex4pls (talk) 15:18, 12 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support blurb Articles looks good. One of the most significant leaders in Ghana and in the African Union, should definitely be considered for a blurb. Gotitbro (talk) 16:23, 12 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support RD satisfactory article for RD JW 1961 Talk 22:51, 12 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Posted Stephen 22:53, 12 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I'm opposed to a blurb like most death blurbs but we've posted many former heads of whatever so IMO Rawlings qualifies --LaserLegs (talk) 01:17, 13 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Support Blurb. People who follow African history will know Rawlings as one of the towering figures when it comes to significance, who was president and dictator for many years, before ushering in democracy and eventually seeing his chosen successor defeated. Domestically, and probably regionally, he was a more important figure than George H. W. Bush, a four-year US president whom we blurbed without hesitation. But globally, US presidents will always trump Ghanaian presidents in the pecking order, so this probably doesn't tell us much. A closer comparison would be Daniel arap Moi, who fills a similar role in Kenya. He died earlier this year, and although I posted him initially, consensus was eventually for no blurb. So, in summary, my personal opinion is that we should blurb, but when considering precedent and comparison with other figures, it's most likely an RD only.  — Amakuru (talk) 08:06, 13 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I would've supported Arap as well, but that doesn't mean this should be overlooked. Gotitbro (talk) 08:56, 13 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Fair enough. Count me as a "support blurb" then. There's no doubt that he was a very prominent figure, and over a lengthy period of time, so let's go for it.  — Amakuru (talk) 10:42, 13 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
By what measure? Please see the discussion above. Gotitbro (talk) 12:37, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep blurb - Funny enough, I was just recently reading about Jerry Rawlings and doing some research into his dictatorship in the 1980s. He was a significant figure in Ghana, and went on to become a major player in the African continent. I believe he is notable enough for his own blurb. Kurtis (talk) 08:50, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. Rawlings was a huge figure at the time in Africa (particularly West Africa), and had a huge impact on politics in the region. - 109.249.185.63 (talk) 13:47, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

November 11

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(Posted) RD: Abdulkadir Balarabe Musa

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(Closed) RD: Titus Davis

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(Closed) RD or blurb: Khalifa bin Salman Al Khalifa

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November 10

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(Posted) RD/blurb: Amadou Toumani Touré

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  • Support Well referenced and quite comprehensive article. KittenKlub (talk) 20:32, 11 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support RD, Oppose Blurb Blurbs are for changes of head of state (including deaths of heads of state), or the Mandela/Thatcher rule--figures who are at the top of a significant field, and a household name around the world. We've diversified slightly from the Mandela/Thatcher rule to allow for figures who had international significance but are perhaps less well-known in North America or Europe (e.g. Atal Bihari Vajpayee, the Prime Minister who brought nuclear weapons to India), but I don't believe that Amadou Toumani Touré reaches the level of international significance necessary to meet the rule, given Mali's comparatively small size in terms of population, economy, and political influence, as well as Touré's lack of regional significance within Africa as a whole. I will grant that Touré is one of the most important politicians in Malian history, but he is likely surpassed by Moussa Traoré, who died earlier this year without even being nominated for an RD. As such, I don't believe Touré merits a blurb. NorthernFalcon (talk) 00:56, 12 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Posted as RD Stephen 02:18, 12 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose blurb Clearly fine for an RD but don't see the significance for a blurb. Gotitbro (talk) 16:10, 12 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support blurb head of state. ~ Destroyeraa🌀 22:55, 12 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) RD: Sven Wollter

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(Posted) 2020 Indian Premier League Final

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  • Oppose not complete, no blurb, no match summary. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 14:50, 10 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Why, no blurb no nothing. Support Alright, looks good now, enough refs and good amount of description. SoloGaming (talk) 01:15, 11 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Template:S Support Looks good now. Great Job Ktin.. ~ Destroyeraa🌀 15:33, 10 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Wait. I understand that this is a good faith nomination to capture feedback on article page as the event draws to close in ~2 hours from now. Obviously you will update the article as the event is complete. Please place special importance on match summary in prose. In seeing recent sporting events, that piece seems to be important. You do not want to have an article with just reams and reams of tables, but, would want good succinct prose. Cheers and good luck. Ktin (talk) 16:10, 10 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Premature nomination considering the match hadn't even started. I've added an altblurb in our standard format. The article will need a referenced prose summary of the match, not just scoreboards and data tables. Modest Genius talk 16:52, 10 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Struck my 'wait' vote above. I went in and added prose for the summary. Looks good in my opinion. If any additional prose edits are required, I can give it a shot later in the evening. Could not find an image from game day, so, I have updated logo. If this is not acceptable, we can go look for Rohit Sharma (captain) 's photograph. If that is not acceptable, this is good to go to homepage sans an image. Cheers and Good luck. Ktin (talk) 20:08, 10 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. Template:Ping -- Please can you all have a look. Concerns should have been addressed. I am available for a few hours for any edits that might be required. If no concerns, this should be good to go to the homepage. Ktin (talk) 01:10, 11 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) 2020 Vincentian general election

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(Posted) RD: Saeb Erekat

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(Posted) Peru president impeached

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Template:Ping It may be appropriate to make this into another ITN using the newly brought up article 2020 Peruvian protests, since the protests were mainly what pressured the resignation of Merino. DoctorSpeed ✉️ ✨
On that note, I'll do a nomination and we can work from there. DoctorSpeed ✉️ ✨
A new blurb, but replacing this one seems reasonable. Kingsif (talk) 18:25, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Closed) 2020 Atlantic hurricane season

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NOTE: Theta is in the process of being added right now. NoahTalk 03:04, 10 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Because we already post major hurricanes that do damage and deaths when they make landfall already, which is what is considered ITN. That there is a largest number of hurricanes may reflect on other trends like global warming, though that's not yet been connected here. So its more of a curiosity that this is the largest number this season. --Masem (t) 03:19, 10 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Template:Re "The model also supports the notion of a substantial decrease (~25%) in the overall number of Atlantic hurricanes and tropical storms with projected 21st century climate warming" from NOAA on climate change. They state that the number of storms will likely drop with there being more rainfall and more intense storms. That has been the status quo for predictions for some time. NoahTalk 03:24, 10 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose we post hurricanes, not seasonal records. – John M Wolfson (talk • contribs) 03:28, 10 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment A bit of an aggressive close this time, considering that (1) the nom has only been up less than one hour, with no hint of SNOW; and (2) the closer has posted all comments but three (four counting mine), with two of those by the same person. Whichever way this goes, it would be appropriate at least to give it a full 24 hours and to have the close decision done by a non-involved admin. (After all, surely this nom was not posted solely as a false flag.) In answer to the sports model, I would point out that both season records and individual records have been posted in ITN in the past, but neither with any consistency; with the number of editor-fans of the sport/competitor in question being a definite factor in whether or not something survives to be posted at ITN. If a record such as this were to be posted, there are three appropriate posting times: (1) upon the breaking of the record, (2) at the end of season (Nov 30), (3) at the end of the year. The first identifies the date of record breaking, but would probably be subject to continued breaking of the record, 2020 being what it is. (The future Iota is NHC-predicted for the end of the week.) The second is the end of the 2020 Atlantic hurricane season as defined by the National Hurricane Center, but 2005 saw tropical storms well outside that limit. The third would include all 2020 storms, but, well, editors and new year celebrations. - Tenebris 66.11.165.101 (talk) 07:28, 10 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Agree with the fast close and aggressive part. Not familiar with tropic phenomena much but noms should never be closed (or posted) this fast and that was a very lazy closing statement. Gotitbro (talk) 11:45, 10 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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November 9

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(Closed) First Hyperloop trial

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Better, but we really need a section on the DevLoop. --LaserLegs (talk) 23:54, 9 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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(Closed) RD: Ken Spears

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To be fair, it was a lifetime partnership and the firm was named for Spears. It would be like complaining there's too much Roy in the Seigfried BLP.130.233.213.199 (talk) 06:06, 11 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Well there you go, that speaks for itself: we only have a Siegfried & Roy article. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 07:57, 11 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Haha, yes. But is there an objection to the article outside of "mentions his longtime business partner too often"?130.233.213.199 (talk) 09:38, 11 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, there's barely any detail on the individual in question. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 09:50, 11 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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(Posted) 2020 Nagorno-Karabakh war

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More succinct and formulaic altblurb added. Target article now included and bolded.130.233.213.199 (talk) 06:15, 10 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

*Wait Already in ongoing. A lot of political posturing has been going around since this war began, I'd say wait for news sources to actually say something substantial, like a ceasefire/agreement which are actually "followed through". Rather than blurbing every update we should wait for this to "really" end (see the comment by KittenKlub). Gotitbro (talk) 09:42, 10 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

We were out till after 5am (others still there but I left) last night. Also see the speaker in parliament. Hostilities are over for now. 2A02:2A57:173D:0:94C:8AD0:C456:3178 (talk) 09:47, 10 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support this was covered in the papers yesterday and appears to be a major breakthrough in the crisis. Not sure what "it's already in ongoing" is supposed to mean in some opposes above - this proposal is for a blurb, to supercede the Ongoing entry, and should be considered on its own merits.  — Amakuru (talk) 10:01, 10 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • See the history of noms relating to this war/conflict here almost every one of them was insignificant enough to be relegated to ongoing for a close. We should really be waiting for sometime than be premature with posting every update. Gotitbro (talk) 10:14, 10 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes, no doubt there have been other noms but this one appears to be significant. You can't rule something out just because other things weren't worth including.  — Amakuru (talk) 16:17, 10 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • There is some more news coverage now, and the media are hopeful, but this is still a volatile situation. Putin also looks worried in that (unrelated) picture.KittenKlub (talk) 10:47, 10 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The box already has Armenian protests linked in. We'll see how that goes this week. 2A02:2A57:173D:0:94C:8AD0:C456:3178 (talk) 10:42, 10 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

PS: The Putin pic doesn't seem appropriate to the story. – Sca (talk) 13:56, 10 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, posting. As said above, the ceasefire article will be bolded since the other one still has a tag. --Tone 10:45, 11 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Template:Ping what happened to the image? There are no opposes for this image. The opposes were for the previous image. 98.116.113.91 (talk) 17:34, 11 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • There is a special procedure with images that require protection at Commons, which I cannot enable. Give it some time so people in charge of images spot it ;) --Tone 20:42, 11 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Closed) Dow Jones All Time High / COVID-19 Vaccine News

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Speculators? What is to speculate? The Wall Street Journal attributed most of the increase to the vaccine. Elijahandskip (talk) 19:56, 9 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Does it? I can't tell since the article is behind a paywall.--WaltCip-(talk) 19:59, 9 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Added altblurb --LaserLegs (talk) 21:05, 9 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Like formula one wins, cricket centuries, painting auction prices or soccer goals? --LaserLegs (talk) 22:12, 9 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose – The ballyhooed record high didn't last. Although at one point in a.m. trading the Dow hit 1,610 pts., up 5.7%, that was only an "interday record." At market close it was up up half that much – by 834 pts. at 29,157, a rise of 2.95%. [27] [28].
    Suggest CLOSE. — Sca (talk) 22:20, 9 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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(Closed) 2020 Russian Mil Mi-24 shootdown

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PS: NYT says Azerbaijan has apologized for downing the Russian helicopter. – Sca (talk) 22:59, 9 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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(Closed) COVID addition: Vaccines

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  • Here's stats for the relevant pages over the last 30 days. These indicate that the impact and portal pages are not in the same league as the others. The vaccine page already gets significantly more attention, updates and traffic. So, if space is tight then start trimming from the bottom of the list. Andrew🐉(talk) 15:09, 9 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Page Views (30 days) Daily average Edits Editors Size Watchers
Pandemic 1,243,586 40,116 332 89 315,940 1,691
By location 1,192,351 38,463 113 31 59,707 420
Disease 660,818 21,317 214 61 218,205 848
Virus 221,627 7,149 39 16 106,853 517
Vaccine 160,487 5,177 78 28 237,104 191
Portal 73,342 2,366 23 1 8,585 67
Impact 33,310 1,075 13 4 7,340 Unknown
  • Oppose The current banner already occupies a large space, expanding/reducing it constantly for every news cycle in the pandemic is unnecessary, the current sections already cover the most visited/relevant topics. If any significant update is there for the vaccine it might be apt for a blurb and will be added to the main article anyway. Gotitbro (talk) 14:00, 9 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I could agree to removal of "by location", since its pretty easy to get there from the main article. Its not a bad idea to add "vaccines" at this stage, since emergency use authorizations are popping up in few places around the world. Albertaont (talk) 14:22, 9 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Premature. I think we should consider this only after a major country start mass-vaccinated it's people. We probably won't have to wait more than a few weeks. We can then blurb the event as well CoronaOneLove (talk) 14:33, 9 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Ditto. Let's wait. Most of vaccines are still undergoing clinical trials. --Tone 14:42, 9 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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(Closed) Ongoing removal: 2020 Nagorno-Karabakh war

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Template:Ref-talk— Preceding unsigned comment added by Gex4pls (talk • contribs) 13:26, 9 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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(Posted) RD: Carlos G. Vallés

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  • Support. Looks good. Clean start class / C-class biography. Well referenced. Meets hygiene expectations for homepage / RD. The bibliography (books) section leans a lot on the subject's own web site. But, I don't see that as a reason to hold this from homepage / RD. RIP. Update: Someone has added a Template:When tag. Would be good to fix that before sending out to homepage / RD. Seems fixed. Ktin (talk) 19:46, 9 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
When tag removed as added year.-Nizil (talk) 12:46, 10 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Posted to RD - Dumelow (talk) 10:30, 11 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Closed) Christopher C. Miller appointed Acting Secretary of Defense

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November 8

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(Posted) RD: Howie Meeker

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(Posted) Chase Elliott

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(Posted) RD: Seymour Topping

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(Posted) RD: Alex Trebek

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Yeah, I should have said North America instead. Regardless, I stay with my stand. Nahnah4 (talk | contribs)
I didn't know Sean Connery hosted game shows. WaltCip-(talk) 18:11, 8 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
We're looking at the full area of film and television actors and personalities when talking top of the field, which would include both movie actors as well as game show hosts. --Masem (t) 18:14, 8 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • The answer is...Support Beloved television (for some reason I struggle to use the term "game show") host and fighter to the end. CoatCheck (talk) 18:27, 8 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support What a great man. RIP. SoloGaming (talk) 18:30, 8 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support blurb He's pretty much a household name in the US, having been the host of Jeopardy for something like 30 years. Even those who don't watch the show have probably seen a couple clips of it, even in a movie or another TV show or something. (The article lists several of those appearances.) — Gestrid (talk) 18:32, 8 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support RD, oppose blurb. He did one big thing, and did it really well for a very long time. BD2412 T 18:33, 8 November 2020 (UTC)`[reply]
  • Support RD - I cannot think of a current game show host who is more notable (for being a game show host anyway) in the United States. Comment in general - There must be some happy consensus that we can reach about extensive filmographies that are not individually sourced preventing articles like this one from being posted to RD. Maybe split the filmographies out to their own articles? KConWiki (talk) 18:34, 8 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. Can I ask one of you to add Template:Cn tags where citations are required. A bunch of us can go about filling them in, and we should be able to get this to homepage levels of hygiene. Ktin (talk)
  • Oppose blurb. Blurbs relating to people who died should be the exception not the rule - and a game show host is not someone for whom that exception is made. This is the type of nomination for which the RD was created. Chrisclear (talk) 18:52, 8 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support RD just came to nominate it myself, but I guess I'm too slow. Don't think a blurb is called for here --DannyS712 (talk) 19:18, 8 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support – RD only — A charming and brilliant TV personality, but not of blurb standing. – Sca (talk) 19:25, 8 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support RD, no opinion on blurb Rest in peace. At the time that I'm writing this, the quality of the article does not appear to be poor, thanks to the editors in this thread who have been working to identify and solve issues with sourcing. I typically support blurbs for individuals who are at the top of their respective careers. It's really a question of how we choose to categorize his career. He was undoubtedly at the top of the game show host category and among the most recognizable television personalities. I think it would be odd to include all movie actors in the same category as him, because we seem to arbitrarily believe that movies are somehow inherently more notable than television shows. I wouldn't oppose a blurb given that he is a household name in North America, but I wouldn't be outraged if we only posted it to RD instead, as he's known for only one TV show, so it's hard to know how to compare his acting career to the careers of other personalities.  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 19:32, 8 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Posted to RD. Consensus seems leaning against blurb, but discussion can continue. Newyorkbrad (talk) 19:34, 8 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I see an article with more than 100 notes and no c/n's and I think the quality is reasonable. More importantly, I see a consensus above to post it. Of course adding additional citations would be welcome, but the lack of a cite on things such as Trebek's victory on Card Sharks is not the end of the world, and there is something to be said about getting high-profile RDs onto the main page in a reasonably timely way. If other admins have a huge problem with this being posted, though, feel free to do as you wish with it without further consulting me. Newyorkbrad (talk) 19:50, 8 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes, but that isn't how ITN/RD works. Recently deceased people follow WP:BLP and must be sourced if they're linked on the main page. I'm sure none of the unsourced material is contentious but it should be sourced or removed before posting. Black Kite (talk) 19:53, 8 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Editors in this discussion have previously asked that citation needed tags are added wherever necessary so that sourcing issues can be fixed. These tags were added, and then the sourcing issues were resolved. Since you believe that there are more areas of the article that need to be properly sourced, it would be appreciated if you added more citation needed tags so that other editors can have an easier time sourcing the article.  Vanilla  Wizard 💙 20:12, 8 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I pointed out twice in which section there was an entirely unsourced paragraph and a number of unsourced sentences. The unsourced paragraph has now been fixed and we're getting towards the article being ready to post. It is far better to wait a short time and get it right than to post it before it's ready. Black Kite (talk) 20:38, 8 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I agree. There's some endemic issues with things like "Support, once the article is updated" and "Posting, because I'm an admin". Neither are great, both are frequent... The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 22:18, 8 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Template:U, I definitely appreciate the perspective TRM. There are problems, but the former is not really one. I am sure the posting Admin can see past the former statement. This is similar to the "Support per nom" statement at AFDs. Re: the latter statement of jumping the process to post, the latter is not endemic to RDs alone, this does happen occasionally and we have seen that happen with ITN blurbs as well. Holding RD alone to that statement might not be fair. Cheers and good luck. Ktin (talk) 22:23, 8 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Well I disagree in the former point. We have a number of admins who are either incapable of or simply don't try to assess the quality of the article, relying simply on the "votes". Just because an article has 100 citations, it doesn't mean it's "well-cited". Especially with those articles which still fall under the BLP policy. We could have 500 citations and one unreferenced sentence like "he used to fornicate with pigs" goes unreferenced, but "it's good enough because it has tons of references". Nope. Several admins here aren't suitable for posting items to the main page unfortunately. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 22:39, 8 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Template:U, I do not disagree with the importance of referencing, more so in BLPs. I just think most of the regular Admins here (who post to ITN/RD) do a good job. Anyways, onwards and upwards! Ktin (talk) 22:45, 8 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Hat

Template:Hab

  • Support RD, oppose blurb While wanting to move away from "X didn't get a blurb, Y shouldn't", Regis Philbin's death was recent and we didn't blurb him, no other similar TV host should be able to touch a blurb while that's still in the memory or it would seem like a gross oversight of Philbin. Kingsif (talk) 14:20, 9 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose blurb As Kingsif mentions above, Regis Philbin wasn't a blurb, and from a search I see neither was Bruce Forsyth, whose career was very long. All three of those men were outstanding in their field, but did not change the world. Unknown Temptation (talk) 17:50, 9 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose blurb Watched this show since the beginning, so it hurts me to say it. He's just not in the ballpark of people we blurb. GreatCaesarsGhost 21:17, 9 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose blurb. I don't think "game show host" is a broad enough category to post someone at the tip-top of that field- and in terms of television in general he was above average, but not at the top. I don't get a blurb vibe here. 331dot (talk) 21:57, 9 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support blurb Household name in the US and among the biggest gameshow hosts out there. Nonstopmaximum (talk) 22:17, 9 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
U.S. – Sca (talk)
  • Weak oppose blurb per Kingsif. Unfortunately, his death was rather expected, and while arguably he is the biggest name in American game shows, others who were close in fame didn't come close to a blurb. I figure if there's several "preemptively oppose blurb" comments before any support blurbs, they're just under the line. -- a lad insane (channel two) 00:02, 10 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

November 7

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(Posted) RD: Jeanne Little

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(Posted) RD: Bones Hillman

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(Posted) RD: Cándido Camero

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Template:ITN candidate *Comment. Citations needed. Also we don't post stubs as far as I know. -SusanLesch (talk) 00:16, 8 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) RD: Chief Rabbi Baron Sacks

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  • Comment. Good biography. Citations needed. Also please be careful with capitalizations per MOS:CAPS; most should be lower case, thanks. This means words like chief rabbi and gala dinner. -SusanLesch (talk) 00:01, 8 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak support blurb in principle, but article still has several citation needed tags. Most prominent Orthodox rabbi in the Anglosphere, which to me is good enough for top of his field, and a pretty sudden death given that he just recently shared his cancer diagnosis. That being said, we seem to have raised the bar from “top of his/her field” to “top of his/her field if it’s a field most contributors care about,” so I’m not sure how convincing this will be to others. Bzweebl (talk • contribs) 00:42, 8 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Decent article, and one of the leading figures in his field, regarded as "Chief Rabbi to the English-speaking world" [33]; nationally and internationally recognized, and his passing noted by Prime Minister Boris Johnson, Labour leader Sir Keir Starmer, his ideological rival, Rabbi Tony Bayfied former leader of Reform Judaism in the UK, Ronald Lauder, president of the World Jewish Congress, Israel's president Reuven Rivlin, the Archbishop of Canterbury, and no doubt more to come [34], [35]. --Chefallen (talk) 04:00, 8 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • This is not ready. A couple of citations are still needed in the article body. Also 'Awards and honours' as well as 'Appointments' sections are basically entirely unsourced. – Ammarpad (talk)
  • Oppose many citations needed, especially around the awards and appointments, and several linkrot URLs in there too. Much work required. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 09:41, 8 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Template:Re I have added cites to his online cv, [36] for the appointments, also the awards and honours. (It seems to have been the direct original source for these sections). Hope this is considered acceptable, per WP:SELFSOURCE. Jheald (talk) 15:25, 8 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. I think the article is perfectly reasonable for WP:RD and that the cn templates are redundant, especially in the "publications" section. There are certainly places which could be improved - I am not convinced that the "appointments" and "awards" sections add value to the article and meet WP:INDISCRIMINATE. I'm ambivalent about a blurb which I could see argued either way per Bzweebl. —Brigade Piron (talk) 16:56, 8 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
ISBNs now found for the publications. Jheald (talk) 21:30, 8 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Removed) Remove 2020 Thai protests from Ongoing

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Technically that's correct, but it's a formality of no practical significance or relevance. The whole world now knows Biden won the election by 279 to 213 electoral votes. – Sca (talk) 23:08, 7 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
PS: See "Why AP called the 2020 election for Joe Biden" – Sca (talk) 23:32, 7 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Note that this is a historic VP selection. 331dot (talk) 17:33, 7 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Not a fan of the added verbiage of the house and senate stuff. Especially since that is still up in the air. Also not seeing consensus in the discussion for it. PackMecEng (talk) 17:46, 7 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yeah, I see no reason to include the Vice President. She didn't run separately. There's no other possibility if Biden won the Presidency. Natureium (talk) 20:11, 7 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    There was no possibility of Biden winning separate from a black woman, who turned out to be Harris. InedibleHulk (talk) 00:03, 8 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - Two things: First, the "House" link goes to the 2016 election currently instead of 2020. Second, has the House actually been called for the Democrats yet? Google (which uses AP calls as far as I know) has them at 214 so far with 218 needed for a majority, and our own article makes no mention of the Democrats having retained it. 208.124.9.11 (talk) 17:30, 7 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks to whoever fixed the link. I did some more searching and could not find any major sources that have called enough House seats yet for the Democrats; even if it does seem likely that they'll retain a majority I don't think we ought to be proclaiming it before the RS (and our own article) do. 208.124.9.11 (talk) 18:21, 7 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Also NYT, WX Post, BBC, Reuters – Sca (talk)
Those are all referring to the Presidency... I'm referring to the majority of the House of Representatives. Anyway looks like that part of the blurb has now been removed. 208.124.9.11 (talk) 19:17, 7 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, gotta disagree this time. "Elected president and vice-president of the United States" seems very awkward. (And obviously there's no such office as president and vice-president of the United States.) – Sca (talk) 19:05, 7 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment The current blurb is fine, the only thing that might be added is the result of the legislative (Congress/Senate). The Vice-President or other subsidiary positions do not go into ITN blurbs; neither is a mention of "legal challenges" needed here that is political fluff (if anything comes off it that is different matter). Gotitbro (talk) 20:24, 7 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • At the risk of being trouted, the blurb has been updated to include Harris by me. News coverage of the vice presidential selection is unusually robust, and multiple commentors here have noted its unique historical importance. While there was some opposition due to length, the removal of the House and Senate portions have made those concerns moot. There were concerns about clarity, since Harris was not elected president, but 2020 United States vice-presidential election redirects to the 2020 presidential election article, so I piped the link to include mention of both presidential and vice-presidential elections. Hopefully this is enough to remedy the clarity concerns of editors like Masem and Vanamonde. — Wug·a·po·des​ 22:23, 7 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • Why did you make the determination yourself, when this is being discussed here with no consensus? There is no vice presidential election. She was only elected because Biden was elected. That is what's newsworthy. A trout is for when you make a silly mistake, not for when you decide that you know better than the people you are disagreeing with and act anyway. Natureium (talk) 22:32, 7 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      • I oppose that. We always post only the president. See in 2016, 2012 and 2008.--SirEdimon Dimmi!!! 22:40, 7 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      • Template:Re You ask Template:Tq and the answer is because I am an administrator experienced in closing discussions and I saw consensus to include Harris. You are incorrect that there is no vice-presidential election, see Vice President of the United States#Election. The vice-president is elected by the electoral college separately from the president, and in the event of a tie is selected by the senate instead of the house (who selects the president). Minutiae aside, while I agree there is no consensus at the moment, your claim that there was no consensus when I edited the blurb is simply false. The first person to explicitly oppose the addition of Harris was Vanamonde who said Template:Tq which is pretty obviously not a blanket oppose since he included a preferred wording should consensus support inclusion (which, as I mentioned, I took into account). Three minutes after Vanamonde made the comment, Trillfendi explicitly asked that Harris be added. Masem replied, saying Template:Tq which is not only equivocating, but rejected by multiple subsequent commentors (and Masem later proposed a wording very similar to the wording I used). Amakuru opined that Template:Tq but as I mentioned in my above statement, the blurb had been shortened and so that concern was no longer relevant; that's not even my own assessment as Black Kite said Template:Tq. You opposed saying Template:Tq which aside from being an WP:IDONTLIKEIT, is factually incorrect according to the Twelfth Amendment to the United States Constitution (. Even if I ignore both those problems with your rationale, multiple commentators gave reasons why it should be included and you can see more comments rejecting your rationale below this comment. The last opposition was Gotitbro who said Template:Tq which ignores the fact that consensus can change and that we operate not by precedent but by consensus; at best it is a statement of what has happened not what should happen. At this point I have listed every comment that could be considered an oppose, and the conclusions I drew are based on things that other people had already said. The discussion had been quiet for 2 hours, and seeing this I saw sufficient consensus to edit the blurb to include Harris. Afterwards significant opposition appeared, and KTC rightly reverted, but your claim that there was no consensus or that I made this decision based on my own whims are not supported by the discussion. Finally, your edit removed a comment by Muboshgu which supported my assessment so please be more careful with edit conflicts in the future. — Wug·a·po·des​ 01:56, 8 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
        • Template:U, How is any of this page something other than ILIKEIT and IDONTLIKEIT? The criteria instructions themselves say that it is highly subjective what is newsworthy. If you want to be pedantic, he hasn't won the election yet. It's hasn't been certified and probably won't be for some time. If you're going to start referring to constitutional amendments and say that the vice president is elected by the electors, you would have to consider that Biden hasn't actually been elected yet, because he will be chosen by the electors. Obviously, barring some huge surprise the electors will choose him, and he will be the next president. Still, voters filled in one bubble electing Biden president and Harris vice president. To your point about consensus, I would expect that for something like this, with a lot of political ideas, and serveral changes already, "consensus" would be more than a couple people. Natureium (talk) 02:33, 8 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    I think the control of the U.S. Senate and House is unquestionably more important than the vice president, so I also oppose this. I also don't like the wording, both because it make it seem like the elections were separate when they weren't, and since it doesn't communicate which of the two was actually elected president (yes, everyone knows, but when our job is to be explaining information, we should assume people already know it). {{u|Sdkb}} talk 22:47, 7 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Sorry, "vice presidential election" doesn't sound right. Preferred it before. P-K3 (talk) 22:49, 7 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Removed addition of Harris - Head of State and general election of the legislature are the ITNR and what we have always limited ourselves to. Feel free to add it back if there's explicit consensus for that specifically. -- KTC (talk) 22:52, 7 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • The removal was completely valid, but it's going to look weird if we don't acknowledge the historic nature of Harris being elected to one of the top two offices in the US. 331dot (talk) 22:57, 7 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Proposal: Add Template:Tq to blurb. The media has widely characterized the race as moreso a referendum on Trump than anything else, so I think it's important to note his defeat, not just Biden's victory. {{u|Sdkb}} talk 23:07, 7 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Are you kidding? I think 99.999999999995% of people know who Biden defeated. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 23:08, 7 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Oppose mentioning Trump; there's already a lot of information we're trying to pack into the blurb(Harris) and people are well aware of who Biden beat. 331dot (talk) 23:13, 7 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Donald Who? – Sca (talk) 23:17, 7 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
It's going to be centred on America, regardless of which conjoined candidate we pretend didn't draw the same numbers to win the same election; if their inauguration shows up here later, same story, shared news. InedibleHulk (talk) 03:53, 8 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Post-posting support. Support posting it now, and support the current blurb; the inclusion of the word "presumtive" may be useful, however, but saying he's "won" isn't inaccurate.  Nixinova   T   C   05:11, 8 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: The current blurb does not coincide with the proposed blurbs nor with any text found in the article. The article never states that Biden has won, rather they use caveats like:

"All major news outlets projecting the race have projected that Biden has won the election, including ABC News, the Associated Press, Business Insider, CNN, Decision Desk HQ, Fox News, MSNBC, NBC News, The New York Times, Reuters, and Vox.[5] Counting continues to determine the final results. "

and

" Joe Biden, the presumptive winner of the 2020 presidential election, pending the formal voting by the Electoral College in mid-December, is scheduled to be inaugurated on January 20, 2021"

I propose that someone with the capabilities to do so, restore the blurb to any of the 5 proposed blurbs, as these are the ones that were supported by polled consensus, and they accurately reflect the wording of the article. Previous discussion on the subject Wikipedia_talk:In_the_news#President-elect --TZubiri (talk) 23:38, 7 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

We don't vote on particular blurbs. They often change as the discussion progresses. 331dot (talk) 23:40, 7 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Biden has won, that is self-evident from the vast array of reliable sources reporting as such. When RS start saying he hasn't won then we can change accordingly. Until then, this is accurate. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 23:52, 7 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Elections in the US are a dumpster fire. The objectors are technically correct, Biden is the the "presumptive" winner until the states certify and delegates pledged. That said, it's in the news now and it'd be absurd to wait for some arcane process designed 250 years ago to disenfranchise black people and give slave states disproportionate power. --LaserLegs (talk) 00:38, 8 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
In the extraordinarily unlikely possibilities that:
  • Recounts overturn results in 3 states for Trump,
  • Biden dies between today and December 14,
  • Biden states that he would not be taking office in order to focus on his lifelong dream of becoming an ice cream vendor,
  • Over 50 electors or whatever is needed become faithless electors and vote Trump,
Then the hook would be wrong. However, I think nobody would fault ITN for not accounting for such issues when even the AP or Reuters already calls the race. Juxlos (talk) 12:08, 8 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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(Closed) 2020 Bolivian general election

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  • Comment - What...when did Trump and Biden "self-declare" themselves president? Plus, the source in Spanish don't say anything about Camacho sef-declarimg himself president. Also, this IP is trying to insert this information without RS at 2020 Bolivian general election article.--SirEdimon Dimmi!!! 06:05, 7 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose I don't see any indication that Arce will not be sworn in.[39]—Bagumba (talk) 07:12, 7 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • There's no clear sign indicating he'll not, in the sense of there's no clear sign indicating Trump may prevent Biden from taking in office. I don't quite understand the criteria of ITN but somehow the ITN for Bolivian election was posted as a blurb before the official result was out while the US election managed to occupy ITN longer by first appearing as an "ongoing" and later reappearing as a standard blurb after the official result is out. Probably when Trump rejects the official result there will be a third one. I hope it's not due to our system favor the United States over Bolivia and remembered Wikipedia had a commitment against Anglo-American centrism so hopefully if this ITN cannot get passed I expect we can reach some agreement on whether (or in which situation) an election dispute meets the criteria of ITN. --173.68.165.114 (talk) 07:43, 7 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      • The US election has not had an official winner. Arce is already declared a winner, posted to ITN, and received congratulations from foreign countries. If Trump threatens to not leave office (which I believe he already did) or threatens to stop Joe Biden from taking office through, say, military action, it would not be posted. If Trump actually executes the latter threat, it probably would. However, Camacho seems to still be in the threaten phase. And unlike Trump, Camacho is neither an incumbent nor second place. Juxlos (talk) 08:28, 7 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
        • Thank you for the clarification! So basically when our itn posted Bolivian president-elect Luis Arce before the official result is out, it should have been posted to the "ongoing" section (just like what we do now to the US election) but simply people forgot that option, and in the future if a country has a prolonged election with two or more candidates declaring victory it should be put into ongoing like the US/Bolivian one before official result is out. Your mention of execution makes a great point. Domestic violence incited by a candidate should not be classified as an execution. --173.68.165.114 (talk) 19:50, 7 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Wait if I remembered correctly, Arce has been accepted as the winner by foreign countries, the US included. If Camacho actually tries to launch a takeover then we would post it, but otherwise this is just a sore loser's threat. Juxlos (talk) 08:25, 7 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • Thanks for the comment. So presumably if Biden's victory is internationally-accepted and Trump incites domestic violence without actually launches a takeover via military, I suggest it meets the same standard. --173.68.165.114 (talk) 19:57, 7 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Wait Per above, what will happen is still speculative. Gotitbro (talk) 11:38, 7 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Even in local opposition news, the most solid event is planning protests. Kingsif (talk) 12:47, 7 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Per Above. SoloGaming (talk) 14:24, 7 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose and snow close Can't tell if this nom is a joke or not. Luis Arce has been elected full-stop. Albertaont (talk) 16:59, 7 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose and snow close - Per above and my own rationale. The sources are weak and this IP is cleary trying to push his own POV.--SirEdimon Dimmi!!! 22:33, 7 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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  • Comment Maybe I'm stupid, but is this supposed to be for ongoing? If so, we don't need a blurb, and if not can you change the title? Thanks. Gex4pls (talk) 20:39, 4 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    It's a non-standard nomination because the idea would be to place it in ongoing while the vote counting continues, and then remove it in favor of a blurb once the winner is declared. I did a bit of research and Nevada will not provide any further updates until Thursday at 9 am Pacific time when they will give their final totals. This makes it unlikely that a result will be known before tomorrow. I suggest we post to ongoing until then. Jehochman Talk 20:46, 4 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Oh alright, thanks for the clarification.
  • Comment How about posting it with a blurb as usual, and if (let's hope it's if) a whole drama evolves, the drama can be submitted to In the News when it becomes relevant, and judged by its importance. 2020 Guyanese general election was ITN on 4 August 2020 according to the talk page after that drama was finally resolved. I don't know what happened in March, because I wasn't here at the time, but that election could have been submitted twice as well. KittenKlub (talk) 20:50, 4 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    That's a good alternative. Blurb when ready, then ongoing for the aftermath which might continue for a month, as did Bush v. Gore in 2000. Jehochman Talk 20:53, 4 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • My view remains the same as the one I expressed in the nomination below—this is already "in the news" by any reasonable definition of the phrase, and the sooner we get something on the front page, the less behind the curve we'll be. The "this is U.S.-centric" objections from the nomination below fail to acknowledge the extraordinary level of international interest in the U.S. election. (For the record, I'd similarly support an ongoing blurb for other massive elections like India, but that's for another time.) {{u|Sdkb}} talk 20:59, 4 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Senate and House election articles are not updated. Would suggest congressional results as a blurb once these are done as per WP:ITNR. Howard the Duck (talk) 21:05, 4 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm listing an altblurb that we could post now. The extremely unusual and newsworthy thing is that president Donald Trump has falsely claimed victory. [41][42][43] Jehochman Talk 21:13, 4 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • That would be an extremely inappropriate blurb to use for WP. While it is true (falsely claiming victory), it is highly judgmental and non-neutral, and something WP cannot speak to in Wikivoice at all. I know the bulk of most editors here want a Biden win and a Trump loss (me included) but we can't let that cloud judgment here, particularly for something that would be on the front page. --Masem (t) 21:18, 4 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      • I didn't invent this. I found it in every major news source I checked. They are all saying the same thing. Jehochman Talk 21:21, 4 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
        • I'm not saying you created it, but it is an unnecessary focus on one detail of the election that is judging Trump. It absolutely should be covered in the election article (as it triggered more of Twitter's labeling and other facts), but in a Main Page blurb about the election, it stands out as a non-neutral facet of the current state of the election. Further, it is not like Trump has been tauting that all day. He said it this morning, then has been on the lawsuit-challenge since. We can't be too eager to post something and cloud our judgement here on neutrality of blurbs. --Masem (t) 21:28, 4 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Alternative blurb makes sense. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 21:16, 4 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • No no and no dear systemic bias. ITNR is for the results of the general election and the result of the presidential election. Aboslutely no flipping way to ongoing. Result of votes takes time to count in many elections, there is no reason why the US get a post when we would absolutely never post such for other votes. -- KTC (talk) 21:39, 4 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Wdym, we post it for other countries as well. SoloGaming (talk) 22:20, 4 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Blurb Post after candidate is announced. I also stated how ongoing should go for this below. (Changed This BTW) SoloGaming (talk) 22:27, 4 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support altblurb If there's a more delicate way to state the fact that Trump has falsely claimed victory, I'm all ears. But it'd be strange if we didn't post something soon, and altblurb is about the most we can say. A Biden victory is likely, but it won't be official without Nevada (which won't be called until at least Thursday), or perhaps Pennsylvania (at least Friday, barring court challenges). The Senate is likely to stay Republican, but right now it's possible that Senate control is decided by runoffs in Georgia on January 5. We can do additional blurbs when those two results become official. Davey2116 (talk) 21:46, 4 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I'd also support ongoing, but it'd have to be clear that the election itself is not ongoing, the counting is ongoing. Davey2116 (talk) 21:47, 4 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
True, but if this becomes crazy then this should be posted in ongoing. SoloGaming (talk) 21:49, 4 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. Probably in that case an article called "Aftermath of the 2020 United States presidential election" would be merited. Davey2116 (talk) 21:52, 4 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Yes that would be fine, if the results are not in by... idk tomorrow morning 8AM Eastern, then yes you should. SoloGaming (talk) 21:59, 4 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe prematurely or mistakenly instead of falsely? Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 21:56, 4 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Right now, most major networks/papers have now called both WI and MI for Biden (including Fox!) leaving him a couple states that he was already leading in and unlikely to lose with additional mail in vote counts that are ongoing (AZ+NV) that gets him to 270, and both are likely to have more results in the next 4-6 hrs. So I suggest we just wait until around 04:00ish and if there are no major results coming in, toss something up, but we'll likely have a "press-called" result here really soon, and we just need a blurb that makes this clear this is a press call with legal challenges in the wings. --Masem (t) 22:03, 4 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hold until reputable outlets call the election, oppose including House and Senate results in blurb. Morgan695 (talk) 22:05, 4 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Honestly, we should only wait until AP (Associated Press) says who won. AP is the most credible source. SoloGaming (talk) 22:16, 4 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
We should actually wait for both. Count is now 264-214. Anything could happen within the next few hours. SoloGaming (talk) 23:22, 4 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Ummmm, no, the point here is that even if Biden gets to 270, Trump will instigate recounts, legal action etc etc. No one blurb will suffice. So ONGOING is the only way to cover this. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 23:40, 4 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@The Rambling Man True, Trump is taking legal action... I see your point, especially since nothing is happening right now.SoloGaming (talk) 03:00, 5 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Wait Nothing is called yet, blurb is mostly crystal on the Senate in particular.  Nixinova   T   C   02:02, 5 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment It does make an interesting statement that a U.S. political election could even be considered for the ongoing section. I must admit, for my part, I never thought to see opposing U.S. protests over "Stop the vote" and "Count every vote". That being said, what with U.S. election laws (by state) being all over the board, maybe it is past time for WP to clarify what, *exactly*, would be acceptable parameters for a U.S. election win -- and keep them for all future elections. In the past, it was usually glossed over with network projections and concession speech, but clearly that is not going to work anymore. Is it when the networks declare it (usually when enough electoral college votes have been network-declared to reach 270 for one candidate)? Is it when all the counts have been stated officially? Is it when the electoral college votes (see Faithless electors in the 2016 United States presidential election)? Is it when all the court challenges expire? Is it when the president for the new term is actually sworn in? - Tenebris 66.11.165.101 (talk) 02:08, 5 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
It also happened in 2000. See Bush v. Gore. Jehochman Talk 02:25, 5 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I remember how Bush vs Gore was treated on WP. I also remember that Gore, quoting Senator Stephen Douglas' (1860) "Partisan feeling must yield to patriotism", finally abandoned the nightmare of the butterfly ballot and the hanging chad and did specifically choose to concede (Dec 13, 2000) in order "to heal the divisions of the campaign". Thus in *that* election year, the U.S. did have a presidential election concession speech, as indeed in every other U.S. presidential vote since WP was created. Incidentally, for those who are curious, a full Florida recount was eventually done the following year, the results of which were mostly drowned out by a September story later that year. (Those results btw constitute one of the memories behind "Count every vote".) This year, however, pushes us to recognise the ways in which U.S. presidential elections are significantly different from other presidential elections. For just one example, there were 10 faithless electors in 2016 (seven after state law, *where it exists*, kicked in). It is looking likely that Biden will end up, at least temporarily, with *exactly* 270 electoral college votes (based on current called and leading states). However, the president is not technically elected until all those votes are cast. If WP goes (as usual) with this reliable news agency or that, what of WP's reliability if even one of those voters (from one of the majority of states with no legislation to prevent it) proves faithless? There do exist constitutional fallbacks for this possibility, but it gets very messy, very quickly. Again taking the current called/leading house breakdown, simply put, Biden would almost certainly not be elected president in that case. It would be Trump instead. - Tenebris 66.11.165.101 (talk) 03:17, 5 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
One of the first edits to Wikipedia 18:08, 27 March 2001 diff hist +1,820‎ N Shotgun ‎ Help me! :-) I'm a country boy from Alabama, but I've been in the city for a looong time.) happened after Bush took office. Count Iblis (talk) 05:50, 5 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
WP - launched January 15, 2001. The Bush-Gore issue, resolved only a month before, was still very, very raw. (Remember I mentioned above that a non-binding Florida recount was being pursued and did end up happening?) Although the articles did not come into existence in anything like their current form until near the end of that year, vandalism was happening almost immediately upon creation. ITN did not exist yet, of course. That came about shortly after 9/11, and was originally called "Current events and breaking news". (Yeah, I have been paying attention to this piece of pop culture for some years now.) - Tenebris 66.11.165.101 (talk) 01:02, 6 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support ongoing News coverage around the world, probably the most visited article at the moment. Jklamo (talk) 02:09, 5 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support blurb (first alternative); oppose altblurb as US-centric and misleading (why highlight Trump when it's apparent that Biden won?). We routinely report the apparent result of elections according to reliable sources. By now reliable sources are starting to describe Biden as the apparent winner of the election; hence it would be entirely standard practice for Wikipedia to report the result of the election. We don't usually wait for formalities when posting the results of elections in other countries when there is an apparent winner according to reliable sources. --Tataral (talk) 02:46, 5 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    It's not assured that Biden won. If Trump holds on in Pennsylvania and Georgia, where he's currently ahead, and then wins Nevada or Arizona, which are leaning Biden on thin margins, then Biden will not win. Arizona was called for Biden, but it looks like that was a mistake; the state is still in play according to Nate Silver. Jehochman Talk 03:17, 5 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Wait - Nothing has been called yet so wait until we have a defined winner. HawkAussie (talk) 03:10, 5 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Posted to ongoing - Fuzheado | Talk 05:07, 5 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • PP comment – Since results in several states are being dragged into the courts by the apparent sore loser, Ongoing seems logical for now. – Sca (talk) 13:08, 5 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Later today major media outlets will probably announce a winner. When that happens, because the significance has already been decided, the final step will be to make sure the article has been updated, and then it can be posted. Let's keep this discussion open, and I'll make a separate section. I believe the item should remain in ongoing after the blurb is removed so long as the result remains disputed. Jehochman Talk 13:27, 5 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Pull Ongoing: the event is bound to be posted once the result is announced thus this American-centric bias is not needed when no other countries' election are ever going to get posted on Ongoing. Depressed Desi (talk) 13:36, 5 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    WP:OTHERSTUFF is recognized as a bad argument. If you take a look at a newspaper today, any newspaper anywhere in the world, you will find this story on the cover. What matters is whether a story is receiving widespread, ongoing coverage. If that happens with some other country's election, we will also put it in "Ongoing". Jehochman Talk 14:00, 5 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    ITN is not a news ticker, we do not reflect what happens in the newspapers. Yes, the elections are likely the top story in the globe, but we are immune to that artificial elevation. --Masem (t) 14:40, 5 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Pull ongoing. Fuzheado, there is no consensus here for posting and for ongoing. When the election is called then Wikipedia should post the results, just like dozens of other countries in this world. If the Associated Press made a mistake and retracts Arizona, then we might have reason for ongoing. -SusanLesch (talk) 14:36, 5 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Pull ongoing. I don't care how important the U.S. thinks it is. We don't do this for elections.--WaltCip-(talk) 14:50, 5 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Whole world seems to think it's pretty damn important. – Muboshgu (talk) 19:26, 5 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Remarkably I agree with Muboshgu here. There's no doubt at all this feeds the systemic bias, for sure (if this happened in Burkina Faso for example, it'd be laughed out of court, irrespective of what others here have hilariously claimed), but for me (the STAUNCH RACIST ANTI-YANK (TM)) it's an IAR scenario. The absurdity of it all. The complete laughing stock it's making of the American democratic system. The fact that literally a hundred million people voted for Trump second time round!!! It's headline news everywhere and because we can't do a blurb yet, ongoing is the only fit. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 20:01, 5 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    No other country has the long dragged-out electoral system of the U.S. I cannot think of another western country which does not habitually know its presidential / prime ministerial election results, or close enough for victory/concession purposes, within a day -- with occasional exceptions of course, but they are exceptions, not the increasing norm. In most modern elections, the U.S. two-party system reduces the choice to a simple dichotomy, which in turn minimises the overall delay. (The occasional experiments with a third party arising from an in-party split did not survive much beyond Theodore Roosevelt, and they did not give all that good results even then. Lincoln may have been their last real success story, and I think those were circumstances we do not particularly wish to see again.) Here and now, however, support in many key locations seems very closely balanced between the two parties, with little likelihood that either side will budge much. This makes final outcomes much closer to 50:50 in many key areas, so much so that tendencies for one party to vote in a particular way will suddenly start to make a great deal of difference in battleground states. Significant delay in final results is thus increasingly inevitable, and also somewhat unique to the U.S. system. It is important to keep in mind that this is specifically designed into the U.S. system, first with its ongoing emphasis on remote/mail voting, second with its state-based approach rather than a single centralised election authority, third with its attitude toward litigation, fourth with the electoral college. (I leave discussion of per capita state representation and law-based voting suppression to -- somewhere not here -- and less volatile times.) The system originally evolved from frontier requirements and assumed a heavily rural vote away from the east coast cities, and in its essence it never substantially changed to take into account faster transportation and communication, in part because of its ongoing internal resistance to *anything* centralised ... so we cannot expect the results to ever be other than "ongoing" so long as the country remains so close to equally split. - Tenebris 66.11.165.101 (talk) 01:48, 6 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose pulling – Like it or not, this remains the No. 1 story (or No. 2, behind the virus), in terms of significance, worldwide. As news it's still going on. It wouldn't serve our readers to banish the topic from the Main Page just because the outcome hasn't been conclusively resolved. When the accursed Electoral College formally reports, it'll be an instant blurb. Thereafter, if court cases still drag on, it eventually will go back to Ongoing. – Sca (talk) 15:01, 5 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
PS: – DT suits in two of three states dismissed. – Sca (talk) 22:39, 5 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. In evaluating this, I see a consensus for ongoing, including from non-US users to boot. In any event, we may have a winner called later today if Pennsylvania and Georgia finishes counting ballots and this will be moved to a blurb. 331dot (talk) 15:05, 5 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Leave it up – while I certainly appreciate the ongoing efforts of those who make sure the main page isn't too US-centric, the whole world is watching this, and our articles on the election are informative, well-written, and worth reading. – bradv🍁 15:15, 5 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The article I see has a state results section with no results for any state, for any candidate, three days later. That seems uninformative. And cruel to pretend the Green Party (or lower) is still in this. InedibleHulk (talk) 02:46, 6 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support keeping as ongoing I'm struggling to find ANY non-US english language news outlets that haven't had this as a top story for multiple days now. Is it unique to have a national election as an ongoing news story? Yes. But it's tough to argue it doesn't clearly meet our criteria for it, and given the clear global interest would be just silly to say it is too focused around one country's news.--Yaksar (let's chat) 16:16, 5 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Yup. Examples: [47] [48] [49] [50] [51] — Sca (talk) 16:56, 5 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Ongoing Um, almost all media in the world right now are giving this ITN coverage. To say this is US-centric is intellectually dishonest. There is absolutely nothing in the ITN page right now that could be remotely construed as being US centric. Albertaont (talk) 18:45, 5 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose pulling Yes this is US centric but with how popular US politics and because of the impact is this is like the #1 story worldwide at the moment. And there should be some final calls 'today', Biden just needs one state, so this (shouldn't) become an eternal Bush v. Gore situation.  Nixinova   T   C   19:53, 5 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose pulling it is certainly ongoing and probably will be for a while, getting worldwide attention (top story here in Ireland) JW 1961 Talk 20:20, 5 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Sheer cussedness. – Sca (talk) 01:30, 6 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Hi, Muboshgu, tonight there were some good answers on the PBS Newshour. Yamiche Alcindor said that Mr. Trump's legal strategy is one he has used for years, "flooding the zone" with information, disinformation, lawsuits, and accusations. I think it was John Yang who said that strategy is doomed to failure. Alcindor or Yang said that Trump's misinformation machine has Rudy Giuliani on RT saying that Joe Biden has mental problems. Then Jeffrey Brown interviewed Richard L. Hasen of UC Irvine, who said everything he's seem so far is "small bore", i.e. nonsignificant, litigation, and that it potentially could drag out for weeks or even longer. I do not feel Wikipedia needs to give Mr. Trump another venue for ongoing complaint. William Brangham said the whole thing has personal and emotional tolls on people. When the AP calls this we should have a blurb and then the story should go away like any other country. -SusanLesch (talk) 04:27, 6 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Pull, not for cussedness, but lack of information on who's won which state's electors (except only Florida). That's important and verifiable, in context. It's purposely absent from the article, but still not there. InedibleHulk (talk) 02:53, 6 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support blurb as proposed, when called by AP ☆ Bri (talk) 03:20, 6 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support ongoing until a president-elect is decided. It's beyond "in the news" and any statements to the contrary are utterly ignorant of the purpose of WP:ITN. Crafting a non-partisan blurb is a bit risky so going with a simple link in ongoing is the safest route for the time being imo. ~ Cyclonebiskit (chat) 04:32, 6 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. Pennsylvania is going to Biden, so the race can be called for Biden. The real news is not that Biden won, but that the Trump is getting support for his bogus arguments from senior GOP members. If local legislatures support Trump, they may throw out votes and appoint Trump electors, see here: "So on Fox Gingrich advises President Trump to have Bill Barr arrest election workers in Pennsylvania and then have the state legislature throw out the results of the election.". Count Iblis (talk) 06:52, 6 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
This is a unique case where the provisionary winner of the election may not become president. If this ends up in the Supreme Court, it's likely that Trump will be handed the presidency. We still don't know what will happen but should posting two blurbs with opposite conclusions be allowed?--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 08:23, 6 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
There is not yet an issue to bring to the Supreme Court, despite what Trump says. Even the disputed ballots in Pennsylvania(3000ish I think) may not matter if the margin is big enough. 331dot (talk) 11:41, 6 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Also Congress has certain powers here that the SCOTUS cannot overrule. E.g. if it were to come down to a vote held by Congress where each State gets one vote which would bring victory for Trump. Pelosi could then intervene and refuse to allow such a vote. There is nothing the SCOTUS can do to force Pelosi to go ahead with such a vote. Count Iblis (talk) 12:34, 6 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I suspect there are enough centrist Democrats to join with Republicans and force a vote, but I digress because it doesn't appear the EC will be deadlocked, one way or the other. 331dot (talk) 12:38, 6 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
We don't need to speculate. Soon the counting will be largely complete and a winner is likely to be apparent. Meanwhile, could we please get eyes on the target article? It needs updating. A "consensus" of two editors is blocking me from posting the electoral vote totals and map as they currently exist. We need more editors to weigh in to generate a clear consensus. Jehochman Talk 13:06, 6 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Od

The Associated Press needs to call it, and as of yet, they have not done so.--WaltCip-(talk) 14:12, 6 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
We do not rely on a single source, though I agree it would be better to have multiple sources. That will happen very soon. Jehochman Talk 14:14, 6 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
No. For us it's the major media making the move. – Sca (talk) 15:50, 6 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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November 3

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(Posted) RD: Faustas Latėnas

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(Posted) RD: Don Talbot

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Support Looks good now, it does not feel good to oppose/not support for a few errors when most of the article is fine but that is how it goes. Template:Re thanks for fixing the issues. Gotitbro (talk) 19:01, 4 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Posted) Hurricane Eta

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(Posted) RD: H. G. Somashekar Rao

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Not what I meant. WP:LISTCRIT reads Template:Green and Template:Green. This means, that the the template Template:T should be filled out, with an explicit reason why these particular works are listed and the other 320+ are not, else the article should be tagged with Template:T. "I could only find references for these works" is probably not a good inclusion criteria, so perhaps list only the works that have been nominated/awarded something. Currently, the article states that it lists the films in which Rao was an actor. Is this an exhaustive list? If so, that would be a suitable criteria.130.233.213.199 (talk) 07:50, 4 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Got it. I have tagged it now. Hopefully this should be good. If this proves to be an issue, I would rather remove that entire section while we send it to homepage / RD. Article meets requirements even without that section. Ktin (talk) 15:05, 4 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Closed) 2020 United States elections

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  • Comment. Can we please stop calling this good faith proposal names like "absurd"? I wouldn't want to participate here if my ideas were called that. American here and I would actually agree only the results (or any dispute that may come up) should be posted, but this is a good faith proposal with no reason not to discuss it and no reason to suppress or delete it just because it's related to the United States. 331dot (talk) 09:56, 3 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Yes, this is giving the US Election prominence over normal procedures for elections. But there is vast global interest in the US general election that exceeds that in all other elections. I expect a lot of readers worldwide will come to the main page hoping to navigate to information about this election, and currently there is no link for these readers. I think using "Ongoing" would be a better strategy though. --LukeSurl t c 11:13, 3 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. I accept that American elections have a different status but I do not think this is helpful. The real question here is not whether the election is important but whether the actual voting itself is. Even in the US, the actual date of the election has become less significant this year. —Brigade Piron (talk) 11:20, 3 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong wait for results, like every other election. Furthermore, the article needs to have referenced prose describing the result. We don't post elections while they're ongoing, or when the polls close - what matters is when reliable sources call the result, and updating the article. It's fine to post the House and/or Senate results if those are available before the President, then update the blurb later. But simply saying that there is an election going on isn't blurb-worthy. Modest Genius talk 12:06, 3 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Wait Until we find out which of the two old guys (or Kanye) wins. Gex4pls (talk) 12:13, 3 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Wait until we either have results or have (god forbid) some sort of highly unusual development. If Trump declares victory based on election night data and starts making accusations of massive mail-in voter fraud or something, we should post. If the final count is delayed so long the Proud Boys and Antifa start shooting one another, we should post. But simply that it's election day, no. I don't think this is an absurd proposal. I just think we need to treat this like any other election until (god forbid) it's not. —valereee (talk) 12:21, 3 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose This should be closed for now. Wait until we have (at least some) results.-- P-K3 (talk) 12:59, 3 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose until there is a clear result, as we do in other countries. Sheila1988 (talk) 13:02, 3 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Wait per 331Dot's assessment in the Courtesy Link provided above JW 1961 Talk 13:22, 3 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Wait – Until gloomsday or bloomsday dawns. There's the usual avalanche of pointless prehash stories out there that are mostly space-fillers. Yawn. – Sca (talk) 13:37, 3 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose premature nomination. ~ Destroyeraa🌀 13:39, 3 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - It's important for U.S. to be aware of the impact of systemic bias and how it can color perceptions. This is probably the biggest national story in the country, yes. But how do international audiences feel? This does not warrant an early posting. Publish it when the final results are out.--WaltCip-(talk) 13:48, 3 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Procedural Comment Please don't re-open this mess tonight, just start a new nom with a clean slate. There is a discussion at WT:ITN if you want to speculate about possible outcomes and how to handle them. --LaserLegs (talk) 19:32, 3 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. This was the discussion for posting the article now, while voting is still underway. We should reconvene in a new nomination after the polls have closed. – Muboshgu (talk) 19:38, 3 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
At 15:00 Wednesday, outcome remained unclear, [53] [54] [55] [56] with nine states totalling 59 electoral votes undecided. Alas, looks like this situation could continue for quite some time. — Sca (talk) 15:28, 4 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. Pennsylvania will need an addition 2-3 days to count mail in ballots, there will probably be recounts in some states, and everything is going to be a mess. ~ Destroyeraa🌀 15:40, 4 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
AKA 'electile dysfunction.' – Sca (talk) 17:40, 4 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Should've been a clear SNOW close. Anyway, a new discussion is better which is going to focus on the actual results and condition of the article than whether to post it or not. Gotitbro (talk) 16:34, 4 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Question on Congressional elections Is that going to be posted independently of the presidential election? None of the articles for those are acceptable. Howard the Duck (talk) 16:44, 4 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • Template:Ping We aren’t going to post the Congressional elections, since they happen every two years and putting them next to the presidential election will make most of the ItN box US politics.~ Destroyeraa🌀 17:44, 4 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      • Nope. We have historically posted midterm elections, and included Congressional results in presidential election years. There are just as many UK general elections as US ones since 2015. What I'm asking if we'd be posting Congressional elections independently of the presidential election as the latter may take some time to be decided. Howard the Duck (talk) 17:52, 4 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • So should the blurb be something like Template:Tq? (Of course if the Democrats get both chambers, that sentence can be condensed.) Nixinova   T   C 19:53, 4 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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November 2

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(Posted) RD: Enuga Sreenivasulu Reddy

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Template:U you are absolutely right. In fact, I edited the talk page on 2 November, and my first impression was that the article looks a lot better now. KittenKlub (talk) 15:08, 6 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Template:U, Template:U -- thanks folks. If someone else can get a pair of eyes on this one -- this article should hopefully make it to homepage / RD before the carousel moves past. Ktin (talk) 16:54, 6 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(Closed) RD: John Sessions

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(Posted) RD: T. N. Krishnan

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Template:Small

(Posted) 2020 Kabul University attack

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(Closed) 2020 Vienna attacks

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Too late, routine violence in Europe posted in 90 minutes. I'm sure no one will be frothing at the mouth shrieking about "bias" or demeaning a "minimum wait" either - that honor is reserved for other countries. --LaserLegs (talk) 22:14, 2 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Wrong, I vehemently disagree with the premature posting by an American admin. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 23:27, 2 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
(and I guess you mean "demanding" rather than "demeaning", right? The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 23:29, 2 November 2020 (UTC))[reply]
What the does my nationality have to do with it. Your comment is repulsive. Jehochman Talk 04:34, 3 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, I was on my phone. Nice catch and thanks. --LaserLegs (talk) 23:57, 2 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
No, what was repulsive was the supervote and abuse of the main page, posting erroneous material with no consensus to do so. Get a grip. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 07:44, 3 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I am pulling this for the time being, the sources are too conflicting to have an accurate blurb. Wait an hour or so until things get clear. --Tone 22:22, 2 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Biggest terror attack in europe since 2015. Gex4pls (talk) 22:48, 2 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support – Has fatalities. – Illegitimate Barrister (talk • contribs), 22:49, 2 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support – Terror-related and fatalities. BabbaQ (talk) 22:52, 2 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose BBC is currently reporting one confirmed death as is the article. WAIT. That this was posted nearly an hour ago is absolutely appalling. Thank goodness someone saw sense and pulled it until we have the facts. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 23:00, 2 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support but wait. Tone was correct to pull since the information from various sources at the moment is too confusing and contradictory, and it's not even entirely clear if the event itself has concluded or is still in progress. Hopefully in a few hours a more definitive picture will emerge. However, this was a major coordinated pre-planned terrorist attack involving multiple perpetrators, multiple locations and multiple fatalities. Even from what's known already, definitely blurb worthy. Nsk92 (talk) 23:06, 2 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Conditional support major attack under large news coverage. Vienna isn't exactly known for its terrorist attacks so this is probably more covered. However if confirmed reports come in that only 1 was killed then it's best to not post. Juxlos (talk) 23:34, 2 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Ah, so you mean wait then? I.e. don't post this until we have the facts established? Template:U, there you go. That's what we do at ITN. Wait until the facts are established before super-voting and posting fake news. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 23:37, 2 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment It's not confirmed as a terrorist attak as of the time of this post, look at the sources on the article!
  • Support Article is short, but sufficiently detailed and well referenced. Story is being covered by news sources. Checks all of the boxes. --Jayron32 00:23, 3 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose for now. Two people dead in something that may be a terrorist attack? There's no there in the confirmed information. power~enwiki (π, ν) 00:27, 3 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per LaserLegs, TRM and PowerEnWiki. It got a few headlines, and people are quick to cry "terrorism" when an attack fits a particular profile, but overall it's unclear if this is of any lasting impact right now.  — Amakuru (talk) 00:47, 3 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose another mostly peaceful terrorist attack. Water is wet. It's like the 5th one in 2 weeks in Europe, better suited for ongoing. 205.175.106.156 (talk) 03:18, 3 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Infobox casualties are unacceptably vague (4+/15+). There's either RS support for these numbers, in which case they can be reported precisely, or they're the result of WP:OR, in which case they shouldn't be mentioned at all. Article is about the same quality as the one above. I am immediately suspicious of the initial !votes describing this as "the biggest attack since 2015" (it's not) and the immediate Anti-semitic/Islamist bickering (apparently kicked off by a Tweet). Europe's now had 4 (own recollection) terrorist attacks in the last few weeks, with casualties ranging from 0-3. This is, sadly, part and parcel of that part of the world right now. I'm completely unmoved by arguments that this should be posted for the strict rationale that they are "anti-semitic". I notice that no one describes the beheading of Paty as "anti-education" or the killing of an Orthodox priest as "Hellenophobic".130.233.213.199 (talk) 06:36, 3 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support article is well referenced to reliable sources. More accurate information has come out and the incident is being covered in a major way internationally. (t · c) buidhe 07:14, 3 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per Buidhe above. Yakikaki (talk) 07:31, 3 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment a common theme in Europe at this time, with a "terror attack" taking place roughly every other day or so. Please don't use the main page as a personal scratchpad: it's not a tabloid newspaper, it's an encyclopedia. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 07:46, 3 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Whatever the exact nature of the event and the fatalities, this is clearly a hugely significant event and should merit immediate posting. It is not a question, as TRM states, of terrorism being "a common theme in Europe". This is an Austrian matter, and clearly exceptional. —Brigade Piron (talk) 11:25, 3 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Clearly is one of the two most over-used words in the English language. – Sca (talk) 14:46, 3 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Template:U, if terrorism is such a big problem in Austria perhaps you would care to populate Category:Terrorist incidents in Austria. At the moment, it includes only one other incident after 1985 and that was more than a decade ago. I think "clearly" is quite reasonably used in this context, no? —Brigade Piron (talk) 15:55, 3 November 2020 (UTC) [reply]
No. – Sca (talk) 17:04, 3 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
What's your definition of major? – Sca (talk) 14:55, 3 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per above. Article is fully referenced and isn't a stub. Major attack that is tragically happening more and more in Europe. ~ Destroyeraa🌀 13:42, 3 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose – Per TRM. Another apparent 'Islamo-fascist' crime – indiscriminately savage but random and lacking broader significance. – Sca (talk) 13:54, 3 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, the article looks to be in good shape. -- Tavix (talk) 14:44, 3 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support terrorist attacks are not common in Austria as some of the dishearteningly apathetic opposers are implying - this is not just "another occurrence". — Ruyter (talk • edits) 16:06, 3 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    They are now extremely common in Europe generally, and as much as there haven't been so many in Austria, the lasting significance and impact of this is limited. Also, posting this when we decline to post shootings with vastly more deaths in other parts of the world reeks of double standards. This was a big story yesterday, but it is already relegated to a minor story on the front pages of UK news sites and we are not a news ticker.  — Amakuru (talk) 16:30, 3 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Current reports indicate that this was a lone gunman. Summarizing the above, it seems like there is not consensus (based on what is known now) to post this. We have a main page item about a shooting with 22 fatalities and 22 injuries. Does it make sense to close this? Jehochman Talk 16:51, 3 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment – Hyped. Suggest close. Marked Needs attn. – Sca (talk) 17:08, 3 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
At 1,900 words of futile blather, it does need attn. – Sca (talk) 17:59, 3 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Template:Ping obviously I'm biased, because I ¡voted to Oppose this item, but if you feel there's no consensus then going ahead and closing seems sensible. As Sca says, the discussion is going around in circles at this point. Cheers  — Amakuru (talk) 18:27, 3 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The article does not need attention, as the article is sourced and not a stub, though this discussion is getting boring and futile. Close if you want. ~ Destroyeraa🌀 19:03, 3 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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November 1

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(Posted) RD: Dan Kohn

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(Closed) RD: Nikki McKibbin

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(Posted) RD: Robert Fisk

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  • Comment : not ready. The Irish Times subhead describes Fisk as "highly regarded and controversial". If our article is doing its job, a reader ought to be able to understand why the IT led its subhead with those words. At the moment, they don't get that from the article. Why was Fisk "controversial"? If we're going to link the article from the front page, it needs to present a full picture of its subject, and it needs to examine this, with balance and NPOV, even though that may be distasteful. If an article has a deliberate blind spot, or we run away from grasping the nettle, then it is not good enough to be linked from the front page. To be sure, part of what made Fisk "controversial" was that his reporting was often relentlessly critical of U.S., British, and Israeli policies and actions. But people who have expressed reservations about his journalism go beyond just the conservatives and pro-Israel columnists who coined the term "fisking" (former article) -- eg fellow Independent journalist Hugh Pope [57], as well as others critical of his more recent reporting of Syria. It's difficult to know how to weigh the criticisms, some of which certainly are politically motivated. (Though it may get easier as obituaries start to appear in the following days). But the article needs to do a better job of contextualising why Fisk became so "marmite". IMO therefore, in its current form, the article is not ready. Our reputation is not served if we promote an article that sidesteps why its subject has been presented (at least by some) as "controversial", or could be accused of whitewashing. Jheald (talk) 22:40, 1 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Template:U, it's not a question of "haters" but of basic WP:NPOV standards. I challenge you to find a single obituary which does not use the word "controversial" at least once. Your comment seems yet another example of WP:POINT. —Brigade Piron (talk) 11:34, 3 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I'm just following the guidelines you can do whatever you want, I suppose. It's strange to me that this still isn't posted. --LaserLegs (talk) 18:24, 3 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Well that's how you keep an RD article off the main page it seems. No one can point to an actual guideline requiring a "controversy" section but we sure are keeping the article off the MP. Sad. --LaserLegs (talk) 18:48, 3 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
This is simply wrong. If anything, Controversies are to be avoided in BLPs, and the "controversies" that this person was involved in happened to resolve in his favor after time. What is to be written? "Fisk was shamed and ridiculed for things that eventually turned out to be true?" WTF?130.233.213.199 (talk) 06:25, 4 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I removed that silly tag. A "controversies" section in a BLP is the opposite of WP:BLPBALANCE. Each relevant section covers what made Fisk controversial. If it's not stale, this needs to go up. --LaserLegs (talk) 23:40, 4 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Template:Ping if you bothered to read the talk page comments and participating in the discussion before unilaterally removing a cleanup template, then you would know that nobody is asking for a "controversies" section. Just some coverage in the existing sections of an important aspect of Fisk's life and career, with *every* obituary about him has mentioned prominently. The article is incomplete without that information, and the tag should not be removed until the issue is resolved.  — Amakuru (talk) 09:42, 5 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Posted Stephen 04:17, 5 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Template:Ping the article is orange tagged, and the issues raised both here and on the talk page have not yet been addressed. Please remove, as it is ineligible for ITN until this is resolved.  — Amakuru (talk) 09:36, 5 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    A little disingenuous to omit that you added the orange tag after posting. Controversies are referred to in the article, such as the Syria section. But please pull it if you believe it’s the best course of action. Stephen 09:48, 5 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    No, I added the orange tag yesterday, and it was removed unilaterally this morning with no response to the talk page comments or attempt to address the issues raised so I have reinstated it. Jheald has given a detailed description of the details that are missing, and it's not about the Syria thing, it's his views on the government policies of the US and Israel, and how these coloured his journalism. The article omits any mention of this at all, other than a vague "he was controversial" note towards the top. To be absolutely clear, I'm not saying we should imply that he was wrong in his views, far from it - on a personal level I think what he said made a lot of sense. But my personal opinion and those of other editors aren't what counts. For NPOV we have to represent the sources, which highlight this aspect prominently, and the fact that his views are disputed. Otherwise the article is simply incomplete.  — Amakuru (talk) 10:01, 5 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Oh well, I've now added some detail on the controversy myself, in the "Views" section so I've now removed the tag again. I guess from my point of view this now makes it OK, but will also see what others say.  — Amakuru (talk) 10:50, 5 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
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